# Of Nike Sneakers and Healthcare reform **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 22, 2009, 3:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045 "2009-09-22T03:18:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/61 "2009-09-23T15:48:31Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think it is preposterous that Scylla will abandon shoes while running. What others do in their bare feet, I cannot say. I run barefoot. Started 3 years ago. I run ultramarathons, and had developed bad runner’s knee and an knifelike intermittent pain in my arch and ouside ball of the foot. I read about this guy, barefoot Ted who had similar problems, blamed the shoes and tried barefooting it with positive results. If you put your arm in an immobilized cast it gets weaker. Why would we think immobilizing and cushioning the foot would help it? So, I tried running on the treadmill in my socks. Quite painful at first, especially in the calves. Took a long time to get used to it, and build up to even 2 miles. The foot and knee pain disapeared. My feet shrank from 12.5s to 11.5s as my arches rose. My pinkie toes which had been rolling sideways perrmanently so I was running on the nail straightened out. About a year and a half ago I bought some vibram fivefingers and do about half my training miles in those. The rest of the time I run in very minimalist “flats.” Threw away my orthotics and expensive heavily padded running shoes. Turns out they were the cause of the problem. Preposterous or not, I run “barefoot” about 25 miles a week and minimalist another 25. Have for almost 3 years, so there. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/62 "2009-09-23T16:19:23Z")
Then I stand corrected. At least on your barefoot running. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/63 "2009-09-23T16:52:00Z")
I seem to have lost the track of where this affects health care reform. Is Obama going to give us all sneakers, and make us run marathons? I fear this may conflict with my own intensive regimen of resting and napping. I suppose its all right for them what likes it. Seems like motorcycyle riding to me, if its so damn much fun, how come they’re never smiling? The faces don’t reflect a bountiful joy at good health, but a stern duty performed, as though one’s first heart attack is but twenty yards behind, and gaining, gaining… My instinct is to recommend exercise that is fun, that brings joy, there is no actual advantage in being tired. This is all a plot by masochists to convince themselves that theirs is the path of virtue. There is an unfortunate streak of Calvinism in human nature, that whispers to us that suffering is good, but it is not. Live well, and if you live long, so much the better. But live well. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/64 "2009-09-23T18:02:47Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This says so much about the sdmb. I think it says something good. The idea that we should pay money to debunk an argument where all of the others cites seem pretty suspect is kinda crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/65 "2009-09-23T18:21:42Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I seem to have lost the track of where this affects health care reform. Is Obama going to give us all sneakers, and make us run marathons? I fear this may conflict with my own intensive regimen of resting and napping. But it also has something to do with bridge construction and a hiatus on safety improvements in airplanes. I’m just glad to know that if I decide to take up spending my days running in clogs, I could be dead by the time I’m 45. Who’d’ve thought? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/66 "2009-09-23T21:29:07Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > So planes are getting more complex, and are much safer, but this clown thinks they would be even _more_ safe if they just listened to him. Sounds like a crank with an axe to grind. But in fact he’s a Yale Professor, and an acknowledged expert in the interactions of complex systems. His book effected a major change in airline crew training. Probably I’m not representing a complex book completely in a couple of paragraphs. > [@](#): > > I think everyone knows that reducing complexity is a good thing, no big revelation there. But he is saying that adding more safety equipment had made planes less safe and there is simply no data to back up that claim. You said that. You showed a source that you **said** demonstrated that the percentage of mechanical failures had not gone up when in acuality it increased by 8% in the last decade. > [@](#): > > And what that has to do with shoes is beyond me. Similarly, the greater increase in technology to protect and cushion our feet is resulting in more injury. > [@](#): > > But, when I Google shoes and injuries your observations in the OP seem to be correct: more expensive shoes are associated with more injuries. One article suggests that thicker soles are the culprit as it changes the way your foot hits the ground. I don’t see any reason to take that and generalize from it. Sometimes these things require more than just a quick internet browsing to arrive at a valid conclusion. If it sparks your interest read the books I’ve mentioned and decide for yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/67 "2009-09-23T21:31:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > The very notion that a stone arch flexes in the same way as the human foot is a ridiculous assertion. You are over-simplifying human anatomy to make a point; I get it. I just think your analogy goes too far, and ignores the vast differences between the human foot and a stone arch, while playing up minute, superficial similarities. I presume that from now on, you will be running barefoot? Ok, you get it. Obviously a foot flexes more. Obviously a foot moves more. However the physical load bearing properties of the arch are consistent from stone bridge to foot. It’s just a matter of degree. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/68 "2009-09-23T21:33:25Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Ok, here’s [a picture of the bridge they built in Norway](http://c-engineer.net/images/Picture3.jpg). I found it by googling “Leonardo bridge”. > > Here’s [a picture of a typical orthotic arch support](http://www.clubphysioplus.com/Images/FootOverOrthotic_withLineBi.jpg). I found it by googling “orthotic”. > > I wasn’t misunderstanding anything. The two pictures look amazingly similar, since they both are trying to do the same thing: support an arch. As I have pointed out before that “Leonardo Bridge” is not Leonardo’s design. It’s a footbridge. The interior arches aren’t so much structural as aesthetic. They are inspired by Leonardo’s design. To see Leonardo’s actual design you need to look at the painting that I showed on my link. You are looking at the wrong thing. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/69 "2009-09-23T21:42:58Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > As I have pointed out before that “Leonardo Bridge” is not Leonardo’s design. It’s a footbridge. The interior arches aren’t so much structural as aesthetic. They are inspired by Leonardo’s design. To see Leonardo’s actual design you need to look at the painting that I showed on my link. > > You are looking at the wrong thing. Your link is exactly the same bridge. Here: I repaired your broken link: [www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/norwegian\_bridge.jpg](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/norwegian_bridge.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/70 "2009-09-23T21:48:51Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > But in fact he’s a Yale Professor, and an acknowledged expert in the interactions of complex systems. Are you referring to Laurence Gonzales? He once was an adjunct lecturer of writing at Northwestern. I don’t see anything in his biography about being a professor at Yale or an acknowledged expert in complex systems. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/71 "2009-09-23T21:53:47Z")
> [@Brown\_Eyed\_Girl](#): > > Rigid arch support is not designed to push the arch up. It is designed to prevent the arch from collapsing. Which is holding up from underneath, which is pushing up. You’re making a distinction without a difference. > [@](#): > > The reason the medial longitudinal arch collapses is because our feet weren’t designed for the inflexible, solid surfaces we spend most of our time on coupled with the weakening of foot muscles due to footwear that greatly reduces the natural flexing of our feet and changes natural gait and posture. I don’t know about the inflexible surface part, but I agree with the footwear part. > [@](#): > > Medial arch support isn’t the problem; it’s a low-cost solution for people suffering the effects of bad footwear and inflexible walking surfaces. My orthotics certainly weren’t low cost, nor were the shoes, nor were they effective. The shoes caused the problem. The orthotics excacerbated it. Because **supporting an arch from underneath is stupid** The podiatrists do not know what they are talking about. My story is a very common one. I run ultramarathons, marathons, and log 2,000-3,000 miles running every year. I use my feet and knees and my ankles hard. Attempting to solve a problem that was created by two much cushioning and support by adding more cushioning and support is nonsensical. > [@](#): > > The arches in the foot (there are several) are not only intended to support weight from above, but also to absorb energy and, unlike bridge arches, to reduce energy required in locomotion. A properly functioning foot, in which the medial longitudinal arch flexes up to disperse the energy of planting the foot, but does not collapse downward after dispersal, and weight is distributed from calcaneus (heel bone) to metatarsals primarily along the \*lateral \*longitudinal arch, as opposed to the medial arch (the cause of collapse), is more efficient. That’s is the problem. A natural running gait is not to land on the heel bone, as you describe. It is only possible to run that way with an extreme amount of cushioning. Try it barefoot sometime, and see what happens the first time you land on a stone. We evolved to land midsole, not heel. We evolved to land with flexed knees not extended. The guy that started Nike figured if he could extend the natural stride an inch or two that would make people faster so in the early 70s he designed a shoe with a big cushioned heel which has been fucking people up for almost 40 years. Your model is flat out wrong, because we did not evolve to land on our heels, and our feet and joints and cartilage are not equipped to handle the shock of doing so. No amount of support from underneath changes that. It just reinforces and increases the ongoing damage from the unnatural stride. > [@](#): > > It’s clear you haven’t really looked into the actual physics of the foot before coming to your simplistic conclusion that arch support is bad. True, but I do run about 2500 miles a year on my feet, which gives me loads of practical experience concerning the hazards of badly designed footwear and orthotics. > [@](#): > > I would have agreed with you, however, if you said that rigid arch support wouldn’t be necessary if we could spend our lives on natural earth most of the time and we stopped wearing shoes that reduced our mobility to start with. Good luck with that, though. I run barefoot on cement so I’m not so sure about the surface being the problem. badly designed shoes sure are a problem. The problem with the design is the cushioning and the support. Adding more of that is not likely to help. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/72 "2009-09-23T21:55:38Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > I > > My instinct is to recommend exercise that is fun, that brings joy, there is no actual advantage in being tired. This is all a plot by masochists to convince themselves that theirs is the path of virtue. There is an unfortunate streak of Calvinism in human nature, that whispers to us that suffering is good, but it is not. You’re quite right. Running makes me happy. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/73 "2009-09-23T21:59:21Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > But it also has something to do with bridge construction and a hiatus on safety improvements in airplanes. > > I’m just glad to know that if I decide to take up spending my days running in clogs, I could be dead by the time I’m 45. Who’d’ve thought? Stop following me around from thread to thread spouting inane little snark. If you’re not equipped to make a contribution, it’s not a substitute. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/74 "2009-09-23T22:03:37Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Your link is exactly the same bridge. Here: I repaired your broken link: > > [www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/norwegian\_bridge.jpg](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/norwegian_bridge.jpg) Try this: [http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/thebridge.htm](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/thebridge.htm) That nice golden bridge is not the one I’m talking about. Click on the painting below it. This: [http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/the\_bridge\_painting.jpg](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/the_bridge_painting.jpg) That’s a conception of Da vinci’s actual design. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/75 "2009-09-23T22:05:54Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Are you referring to Laurence Gonzales? He once was an adjunct lecturer of writing at Northwestern. I don’t see anything in his biography about being a professor at Yale or an acknowledged expert in complex systems. Would that be Laurence “Speedy” Gonzales? ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/76 "2009-09-23T22:06:31Z")
> [@DanBlather](#): > > Are you referring to Laurence Gonzales? He once was an adjunct lecturer of writing at Northwestern. I don’t see anything in his biography about being a professor at Yale or an acknowledged expert in complex systems. No. When you first asked for cites I mentioned Gonzales cites Perrow. Perrow is the Yale professor. Here’s a link to the book: > **[Normal Accidents: Living with High-Risk Technologies: Perrow, Charles:...](https://www.amazon.com/Normal-Accidents-Living-High-Risk-Technologies/dp/0691004129)** > > Normal Accidents: Living with High-Risk Technologies \[Perrow, Charles\] on Amazon.com. \*FREE\* shipping on qualifying offers. Normal Accidents: Living with High-Risk Technologies ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/77 "2009-09-23T22:09:33Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Try this: > [http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/thebridge.htm](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/thebridge.htm) > > That nice golden bridge is not the one I’m talking about. Click on the painting below it. > > This: > [http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/the\_bridge\_painting.jpg](http://www.vebjorn-sand.com/images/the_bridge_painting.jpg) > > That’s a conception of Da vinci’s actual design. Dude, it’s the same type of fucking bridge. It’s an arched surface supported by an arch underneath. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/78 "2009-09-23T22:17:53Z")
> [@Snowboarder\_Bo](#): > > Dude, it’s the same type of fucking bridge. It’s an arched surface supported by an arch underneath. No. There are three arches. The one shallow main arch, and the two steep lateral ones. Those three actually form a single arch which is unsupported. In that design there is nothing pushing up from underneath. I apologize for not explaining it well, but look at it and see if you can see what I mean. It’s not an orthotic. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/79 "2009-09-23T22:22:52Z")
> [@Scylla](#): > > Stop following me around from thread to thread spouting inane little snark. If you’re not equipped to make a contribution, it’s not a substitute. Oh, I think that you’re really doing swell in this thread without my help. I do think it’s legitimate to ask which of the various subjects in this thread the debate is supposed to focus on. Nikes? Health care reform? Arches? Remote tribes of superhealthy runners who die at 45? Airplane safety features? Your remarkable running habits and preferences? In the other thread, uh, you called me out in your OP, genius. You may have reasonably predicted I’d respond there. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2009, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045/80 "2009-09-23T22:28:41Z")
> [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](#): > > Oh, I think that you’re really doing swell in this thread without my help. I do think it’s legitimate to ask which of the various subjects in this thread the debate is supposed to focus on. Nikes? Health care reform? Arches? Remote tribes of superhealthy runners who die at 45? Airplane safety features? Your remarkable running habits and preferences? If you’re not equipped to understand the subject, there’s not much I can do about it. > [@](#): > > In the other thread, uh, you called me out in your OP, genius. You may have reasonably predicted I’d respond there. Yeah, but not because I mentioned you. You pretty much threadshit everywhere. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-nike-sneakers-and-healthcare-reform/511045.md?page=5)