# Of Sapphics and Lesbians **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [August 31, 2021, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857 "2021-08-31T20:30:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 10:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/23 "2021-09-01T10:32:14Z")
> [@Jim\_B](#): > > Again, why? And while we’re at it, what does Sapphic then mean? Someone use it in a sentence please. It’s an adjective. Have you never heard of Sapphic love, i.e. erotic affection between women? > [@Jim\_B](#): > > Why are female homosexuals called _Lesbians_ ? The poet’s name was Sappho. Lesbos is just where she came from. Seems a bit misleading to me. Not sure what’s misleading about it. the word is so tightly associated with female homosexuality that it’s the first thing almost everybody thinks of if you use it - so much so that if you wanted to describe a woman as being from Lesbos, you definitely wouldn’t refer to her as a Lesbian because people would get the wrong idea. “Gay” has a similar history. It used to just mean happy, but these days if you describe a man as “gay”, people will think that he beds other men. ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 10:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/24 "2021-09-01T10:35:19Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > “Gay” has a similar history. It used to just mean happy, I would say more like cheerful and extrovert. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/25 "2021-09-01T10:41:35Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > I would say more like cheerful and extrovert. We’re both in **[the same gay ballpark](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/gay)**: > . > . > . > 2a **:** happily excited **:** [MERRY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/merry) > //in a gay mood > > b **:** keenly alive and exuberant **:** having or inducing high spirits > //a bird’s gay spring song > > 3a **:** [BRIGHT](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/bright), [LIVELY](https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/lively) > //gay sunny meadows > > b **:** brilliant in color > > 4 **:** given to social pleasures ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/26 "2021-09-01T10:48:40Z")
[![](https://superdickery.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/tuska_panel.jpg) ](https://superdickery.com/wp-content/uploads/2015/01/tuska_panel.jpg) ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/27 "2021-09-01T12:03:35Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Not sure what’s misleading about it. the word is so tightly associated with female homosexuality that it’s the first thing almost everybody thinks of if you use it - so much so that if you wanted to describe a woman as being from Lesbos, you definitely wouldn’t refer to her as a Lesbian because people would get the wrong idea. I guess that’s what he thinks is misleading. The word can’t be used to describe someone from Lesbos because of its more common English meaning. Is this a problem? I don’t know. I’ve never had to talk about someone from Lesbos. How do Lesbosians feel about it? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 12:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/28 "2021-09-01T12:24:07Z")
> [@Richard\_Pearse](#): > > I guess that’s what he thinks is misleading. The word can’t be used to describe someone from Lesbos because of its more common English meaning. Is this a problem? I don’t know. I’ve never had to talk about someone from Lesbos. How do Lesbosians feel about it? That’s the thing: it’s not misleading if virtually everybody understands the same meaning when you use the word. Since virtually everyone first thinks “homosexual female” when you use the word, it would only be misleading if you were using it to describe a straight woman from Lesbos. Or really, _anything at all_ from Lesbos. > **[Lesbian rule](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lesbian_rule)** > > A Lesbian rule was historically a flexible mason's rule made of lead that could be bent to the curves of a molding, and used to measure or reproduce irregular curves. Lesbian rules were originally constructed of a pliable kind of lead found on the island of Lesbos. > The rule is alluded to by Aristotle in his Nicomachean Ethics (book V, chapter 10) as a metaphor for the importance of flexibility in equitable justice: > For what is itself indefinite can only be measured by an indefinite standard, l... Some years ago the folks at the Onion published **[a book](https://www.amazon.com/Our-Dumb-Century-Presents-Headlines/dp/0609804618/)** containing “articles” from the past 100 years. In one of these articles, ostensibly from the 1920’s, the headline declared San Francisco the “gayest city ever” and then the article exclusively described what a cheerful, upbeat place it was. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/29 "2021-09-01T13:27:52Z")
I am not even sure how gay or bi Sappho was, nor, frankly, why anyone would think it was important, as opposed to, say, her work. Gross sexists never change. Use in a sentence: All the haters pretended Sapphic distichs lacked enough spark for their purposes, while in reality there was no cure for their own utter insipidity. Lesbians is the most common name (for Mytileneans), not sure how often I have heard Lesbiot (cf Rhodian, Rhodiot). This should be in no wise confusing. ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/30 "2021-09-01T14:00:23Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > Not sure what’s misleading about it. the word is so tightly associated with female homosexuality that it’s the first thing almost everybody thinks of if you use it - so much so that if you wanted to describe a woman as being from Lesbos, you definitely wouldn’t refer to her as a Lesbian because people would get the wrong idea. In a similar vein, back in the day when Venus was a jungle planet and getting a lot more science fiction stories written about it than today’s hellhole, the proper adjective was “venereal” as in venereal vine or venereal bedrock. Most writers went with “venusian.” ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/31 "2021-09-01T14:20:26Z")
What I want to know is why it is pronounced ‘saf-fik’ rather than ‘sap-fik.’ ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/32 "2021-09-01T14:33:33Z")
Lesser Sapphic: – u – x – u u – u – – Greater Sapphic: – u – – – | u u – | – u u – u – – (more or less?) > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > What I want to know is why it is pronounced ‘saf-fik’ rather than ‘sap-fik.’ Is it? My Greek could be better. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/33 "2021-09-01T14:45:16Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > What I want to know is why it is pronounced ‘saf-fik’ rather than ‘sap-fik.’ The Wikipedia page shows the Greek pronunciation includes the separate “p” sound: > **[Sappho](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sappho)** > > Sappho (/ˈsæfoʊ/; Greek: Σαπφώ Sapphō \[sap.pʰɔ̌ː\]; Aeolic Greek Ψάπφω Psápphō; c. 630 – c. 570 BC) was an Archaic Greek poet from Eresos or Mytilene on the island of Lesbos.\[a\] Sappho is known for her lyric poetry, written to be sung while accompanied by music. In ancient times, Sappho was widely regarded as one of the greatest lyric poets and was given names such as the "Tenth Muse" and "The Poetess". Most of Sappho's poetry is now lost, and what is extant has mostly survived in fragmentary f... ---
**Author:** ![StarvingButStrong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/starvingbutstrong/32/335_2.png) [@StarvingButStrong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/StarvingButStrong)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/34 "2021-09-01T15:38:54Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > Is it? My Greek could be better. Are you sure? Every bit of your post is Greek to me. I wasn’t clear: I have actually only heard ‘sapphic’ spoken aloud a few times, always by people speaking English, and each time they pronounced it as ‘saf-fik’ so I presumed that is the ‘correct’ English pronunciation. Maybe I’m wrong, and they were too? I just realized that my question also applies to ‘sapphire’, so I guess it’s some lesser rule of pronunciation I never learned about. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/35 "2021-09-01T15:41:05Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I wasn’t clear: I have actually only heard ‘sapphic’ spoken aloud a few times, always by people speaking English, and each time they pronounced it as ‘saf-fik’ so I presumed that is the ‘correct’ English pronunciation. Maybe I’m wrong, and they were too? That’s been my experience, too – I’ve only ever heard it pronounced “SAF-fik.” My guess would be that the hard “p” sound from the original Greek got lost along the way as the term became Anglicized and popularized. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/36 "2021-09-01T15:46:16Z")
> [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > have actually only heard ‘sapphic’ spoken aloud a few times, always by people speaking English, and each time they pronounced it as ‘saf-fik’ so I presumed that is the ‘correct’ English pronunciation. Maybe I’m wrong, and they were too? OED says you can blame the French for this 🙂 (16th-century French saphique, sapphique) > [@StarvingButStrong](#): > > I just realized that my question also applies to ‘sapphire’, so I guess it’s some lesser rule of pronunciation I never learned about. There, too the “p” is pronounced in (some dialects of) Greek and Hebrew, so you may be on to something. ---
**Author:** ![Levolor\_the\_Blind](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bc8723/32.png) [@Levolor\_the\_Blind](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Levolor_the_Blind)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/37 "2021-09-01T15:53:49Z")
We’re wandering afield from the OP a bit, but here’s an entertaining video about Sappho: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/7gzpY4Wv81U/maxresdefault.jpg "The Original Lesbian // Sappho of Lesbos [CC] [AD]") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7gzpY4Wv81U) ---
**Author:** ![FrenchDunadan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/frenchdunadan/32/5449_2.png) [@FrenchDunadan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FrenchDunadan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/38 "2021-09-01T18:23:55Z")
in French, saphir and saphique have only one P, but come from two different words: maybe the letter Pi gave “pp” in English and “p” in French. And women who loved others women were called 'tribades" in old French, from the root tribein, to rub. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/39 "2021-09-01T18:51:12Z")
Remember the old _Golden Girls_ episode, in which Blanche thought Danny Thomas was a lesbian? 🤣 [He was Lebanese.] ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/40 "2021-09-01T19:23:49Z")
> [@Roderick\_Femm](#): > > These are, however, all based on stereotypes that at one time had some (perceived) basis in reality, unlike the use of Lesbian. There was never a stereotype about people from Lesbos all or mostly being Sapphic women. It is just a quirk of accumulated preference for the term by a variety of people over time. Maybe it’s easier to say, or to remember how to spell correctly. For at least a few of those those are stereotypes about a subset of people who the adjective applied to, even for the period the poetic usage references. At no point did anyone think your average byzantine was devious and/or complex, people knew the reference was to the politics and power struggles. Which is not all that different from people knowing, when lesbian came into use, that it wasn’t about everyone on Lesbos, but was referencing the island’s claim to fame. It’s especially not different from delphic, which is about the utterances of the oracle, not even everyone in the temple. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2021, 8:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/41 "2021-09-01T20:06:17Z")
Ψάπφω = ps a p ph o. ps like “psychology.” ph like “staph.” In Greek, they are single letters. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2021, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857/42 "2021-09-02T16:52:01Z")
If we didn’t have this use of “Lesbian” to mean both Female Homosexuals and Inhabitants of Lesbos, then we couldn’t have threads with headlines like this: > [@20 Million Year Old Lesbian Tree Found](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/20-million-year-old-lesbian-tree-found/934128): > [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-sapphics-and-lesbians/949857.md?page=3)