# Of the 4 Star Wars movies. . . . **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [November 28, 2001, 3:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643 "2001-11-28T03:17:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/21 "2001-11-28T16:40:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mandelstam \* > **Um, Luke discovers that Vader wasn’t really his father, but a downloaded simulation used to distract him. While he worked out his Oedipal crisis, the AIs were busy sending Morpheus to the Desert of the Real (a/k/a the Empire), while replacing the Oracle with Princess Leah. The Lady in Red seduces Han Solo but not before it’s discovered that Luke’s real father is Thomas Anderson–sent back through time by rebels so he could father Linda Hamilton’s baby.** See! I told you they could do better! Not too hard is it… (While I realize you were joking does that seriously sound any worse than tribal teddy bears, tribal fishmen and parasite infested 8 year olds taking on the might of the Empire and winning?) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/67e7ee/32.png) [@The\_Great\_Gazoo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Great_Gazoo)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/22 "2001-11-28T18:47:26Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RickJay \* > \*\*I’ll tell you why The Phantom Menace and the Return of the Jedi are, really, co-owners of the Worst Star Wars Movie Award: > > Kids. > > -much snipped-\*\* You are absolutely correct. And you can see it clearly in the Indiana Jones movies. Which IJ movie is the worst? Temple of Doom with that Short Round kid, who is always retarding the forward momentum of the plot for NO CONCEIVABLE PURPOSE. If you eliminate that kid, you lose nothing but filler. Do kids need to see kids on screen to enjoy these movies? Did Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade sell less tickets because there wasn’t a kid in it? I don’t think so. Spielberg caught on, you would think he would have passed the word to Lucas. ---
**Author:** ![Katisha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/bcef8e/32.png) [@Katisha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Katisha)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/23 "2001-11-28T20:08:17Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by RTFirefly \* > \*\*I must admit I’m tired of the whole genetic role in Jedi knighthood from both RoJ and TPM. You’d think the notion of hereditary aristocracy would be a non-starter in this era, but for Lucas, it’s still alive and kicking, apparently. \*\* Minor Episode II spoiler… just to be safe… What’s even weirder is that Ep II apparently is going to establish that the Jedi are celibate. You’d think that being a Jedi would probably be genetic, so how do they pass on those Jedi genes? (I assume non-Jedi can also have Jedi kids, then, sort of like wizards born to Muggle parents in the Harry Potter series – Hermione Granger is one of these.) spoiler space ends **here** > [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Larry Mudd_ > **I would love to see Return of the Jedi redone (as Revenge of the Jedi?) as originally conceived, on Kashhyyyk, with the support of the Wookies. As long as they weren’t sucky Wookies, like in the holiday special.** Yeah…wouldn’t want to take the chance that Itchy and Lumpy might canonically exist. :eek: ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/24 "2001-11-28T22:24:38Z")
> [@](#): > > What’s even weirder is that Ep II apparently is going to establish that the Jedi are celibate. You’d think that being a Jedi would probably be genetic, so how do they pass on those Jedi genes? Because Jedi power isn’t just a hereditary thing. Sometimes it can happen at random… two “normal” beings can have a Force-empowered child, and, conversely, two Jedi beings can have a Force-blind child. It’s just that, with a Jedi, having a Force-empowered child is more likely. > [@](#): > > Yeah…wouldn’t want to take the chance that Itchy and Lumpy might canonically exist. Unfortunately, they do canonically exist. ☹ ---
**Author:** ![Mandelstam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Mandelstam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mandelstam)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/25 "2001-11-28T22:58:49Z")
\*\*Whack-a-Mole \*\* \*"See! I told you they could do better! Not too hard is it… (While I realize you were joking does that seriously sound any worse than tribal teddy bears, tribal fishmen and parasite infested 8 year olds taking on the might of the Empire and winning?)"\* You’ll get no argument out of me. I liked SW just fine and, like most, liked ESB the best. This was good archetypal stuff. But _Phantom_ blew it for me for all the reasons that have so far been said. Also the obvious ethnic characteristics of the so-called aliens were incredibly lame. Asiatic-seeming traders, Jewish-sounding middlemen. Klunk. And while I’m at it, what kind of lame machismo is at play when we’re given to believe that a kid is destined to go from Jedi to Darksider all b/c he felt bad about leaving his mom and was afraid. Man, give kids (and Moms) some more credit than that! As to _The Matrix_, a work of sublime genius. I cannot say enough good things about it. No wait–this says it: the first thing I agreed with my father about in, like, fifteen years ;). ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/26 "2001-11-28T23:08:45Z")
[Moderator Hat ON] Moving to Cafe Society. [Moderator Hat OFF] ---
**Author:** ![vibrotronica](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/a9a28c/32.png) [@vibrotronica](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vibrotronica)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2001, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/27 "2001-11-28T23:41:49Z")
Damn, RickJay! I had exactly the same idea about TPM! You are 100% right. I’m glad I"m not the only one to think of it. No, wait, I’m pissed off that somebody else thought of it. No, wait… Empire is the best and Jedi is the worst. I heard through the Star Wars fanatic grapevine that the original story was as follows: When Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father and Kenobi and Yoda have lied to him, Luke joins him and goes over to the Dark Side, leaving only Leia still fighting the good fight. Then, in REVENGE of the Jedi, Leia trains as a Jedi, rescues Han from Jabba, and they proceed to the Kashyyk. Meanwhile, Vader and Luke team up against the Emperor and kill him, making Vader the new master and Emporer and Luke his apprenitce. Han and the wookies take out the deflector shield and Lando dies in the Falcon while destroying the Death Star (thus redeeming himself for the betrayal at Bespin). Meanwhile, Leia confronts Luke and Vader like Luke confronted Vader and Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. Leia and Luke fight, Leia gets the upper hand, and Vader steps in. Luke sees the light at the last minute and saves Leia from Vader and we all live happily ever after. That would be twice the movie Jedi was! But is it a UL, or wishful thinking on the part of some fanatics (like me, apparently), or was Jedi actually ruined by a change in the end of Empire? I wish I could take credit for it, but alas, I can not. And by the way, The Matrix sucks. The first time I saw it, I liked it. The second time I saw it, I thought it was a commercial for sunglasses and cell phones. ---
**Author:** ![Larry\_Mudd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f14d63/32.png) [@Larry\_Mudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Mudd)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 2:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/28 "2001-11-29T02:59:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **kingpengvin:** In the end a Turd is a Turd no matter how you recut it. _“Don’t you know about the word? Everybody knows that a turd is a turd…”_ [sup]'Scuze me.[/sup] ---
**Author:** ![The\_Controvert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@The\_Controvert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Controvert)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/29 "2001-11-29T03:06:20Z")
> [@](#): > > Because Jedi power isn’t just a hereditary thing. Sometimes it can happen at random… two “normal” beings can have a Force-empowered child, and, conversely, two Jedi beings can have a Force-blind child. It’s just that, with a Jedi, having a Force-empowered child is more likely. I like to see it as more of a continuum. There are zeros, and there are slightly Force attuned like Han Solo, then there are Force talented folks like the Skywalkers and Yoda. Like how the incidence of autism and aspergers is higher in the “nerdy” breeding grounds of Silicon Valley (reference Wired, Dec 2001, pg 174) there could be genetic predispositions, hence Luke and Leia are both strong in the Force and fathered by Anakin, a talent. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/30 "2001-11-29T06:19:05Z")
SPOOFE wrote: > [@](#): > > Worst: The Phantom Menace. […] What was once a powerful, mystical energy field (the Force) suddenly became a parasitic infestation. Now now, there’s a difference between a parasite and a symbiont, you know. Although, if ones midi-chlorian count is responsible for ones acuity with the Force, I don’t know why a civilization as advanced as the _Star Wars_ universe couldn’t just **add** midi-chlorians to somebody’s cells and **make** Jedi candidates out of any Tom, Dick, or Harry they want to. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 11:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/31 "2001-11-29T11:02:36Z")
Well, Tracer, I’m just hoping that in Episode II, there’s a scene that goes something like this: ANAKIN: “But Qui-Gon said that midichlorians were a bunch of living creatures that communicated the Force to us.” OBI-WAN: “Well, Qui-Gon was lying. He wanted to keep things simple for you back when you were an idiotic 9-year-old kid.” ANAKIN: “I’ve never felt so upset! I’m going to pretend that Qui-Gon never existed!” OBI-WAN: “Me too. He used to touch me in my no-no spot when I was his padawan.” That would get rid of the midichlorian controversy, AND explain why Qui-Gon was never mentioned until Episode I came around! ---
**Author:** ![Gorgon\_Heap](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/f475e1/32.png) [@Gorgon\_Heap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gorgon_Heap)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/32 "2001-11-29T20:15:56Z")
**tracer** , that bit about injecting midichlorians (hmmm … I think they’re like dust mites) is actually coming to fruition in the StarWars RPG I began years ago and am now co-running with a friend. It was his idea, and when I asked what his solution to the problem of bad guys having a bajillion force-sensitive demi-Jedis working for them was, he said, “They go insane”. I though that was nice. 'Course I don’t know if any of you guys are gamers of how much you really know of the cannon – especially since there are plenty of times in the novels they talk about the hereditary nature of force-sensitivity and its continuation from generation to generation. Yeah. Back to the OP: –? –TPM –TPM I don’t hold any grudges against Jedi. I pretty much see the original three as a long movie with better FX tech as they go along. The Ewoks were not as serious as they could have been, but their presence certainly didn’t ruin the film. However, I do agree wiht just about everything satted so far about TPM. I liked it, but it was crap. ---
**Author:** ![Enigma42](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/87869e/32.png) [@Enigma42](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enigma42)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/33 "2001-11-29T21:54:50Z")
Best - ESB Worst - TPM Remake - TPM No big surprises there, right? I think RotJ is easily the worst of the first 3, but I also feel that it’s problems are less severe than TPM. Also, it had the very cool speeder bikes. . . 🙂 RickJay, that’s exactly what I thought after seeing TPM. A lot of problems in TPM would’ve been solved by reworking/eliminating Jar Jar and by making Anakin a teenager. It still wouldn’t have lived up to ESB, but it could’ve been better than RotJ. It’s too bad for us that Lucas got that sweet merchandising deal with those movies. It turned out well for him, obviously. But I tend to think that it caused him to compromise artistic vision in order to cater to kids and sell more toys. Also, from what I’ve read, he’s quite the control freak. I think maybe he needs to let the talented people who work for him make some contributions in their areas. Speaking of which: Has anyone looked at the _Art of Episode 1_? I may not have that title exactly right, but it’s the book that has a ton of the concept drawings for TPM. Many of the concept drawings are significantly better than what ended up in the movie. Many of the designs also make more sense (like the Naboo starfighter concept actually having space for the R2 unit’s legs). In many instances, it is implied that Lucas himself overrode the designs and chose or directed the final, inferior designs. There is a whole series of intriguing aquatic themed spaceship designs for the Queen’s royal cruiser. Then at the end there is the silver SR71 design with a caption mentioning that Lucas decided they should go with this design. I got a strong impression from reading the text that the author of the book had very critical feelings towards Lucas’s choices in those areas. But of course, he/she didn’t come right out and say as much. I’m interested in anyone else’s opinions of the concept designs for TPM and if they think they were superior to the final products. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/34 "2001-11-29T22:31:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vibrotronica \* > \*\*I heard through the Star Wars fanatic grapevine that the original story was as follows: > > When Vader reveals to Luke that he is his father and Kenobi and Yoda have lied to him, Luke joins him and goes over to the Dark Side, leaving only Leia still fighting the good fight. Then, in REVENGE of the Jedi, Leia trains as a Jedi, rescues Han from Jabba, and they proceed to the Kashyyk. Meanwhile, Vader and Luke team up against the Emperor and kill him, making Vader the new master and Emporer and Luke his apprenitce. > > Han and the wookies take out the deflector shield and Lando dies in the Falcon while destroying the Death Star (thus redeeming himself for the betrayal at Bespin). Meanwhile, Leia confronts Luke and Vader like Luke confronted Vader and Palpatine in Return of the Jedi. Leia and Luke fight, Leia gets the upper hand, and Vader steps in. Luke sees the light at the last minute and saves Leia from Vader and we all live happily ever after. > \*\* Is this true? Because this would have seriously kicked some serious ass. Imagine Princess Leia in a gold bikini wielding a lightsaber. [Homer]Mmmmm…Princess Leia…[/Homer] [sub]I need to take a cold shower now.[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 1:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/35 "2001-11-30T01:34:11Z")
Gorgon Heap wrote: > [@](#): > > that bit about injecting midichlorians (hmmm … I think they’re like dust mites) From what I’ve heard, Lucas said he got the idea for midichlorians from **mitochondria** , the energy-producing organelles that exist in every cell of the human body. (Mitochondria are now thought to have originally been purple bacteria that evolved into a symbiotic relationship with early Eukaryotic cells. Eukaryotes then went on to evolve into every multicellular organism on Earth, including humans, and they took their mitochondria with them.) ---
**Author:** ![south333](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5f9b8f/32.png) [@south333](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/south333)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2001, 3:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/36 "2001-11-30T03:27:18Z")
Although I have not seen all of the films, The Phantom Menace did seem to be the worst. The whole relationship between Anakin and Queen Amidala was strange, considering the fact that he hadn’t even hit puberty yet, and Jar Jar was incredibly annoying. The one thing that I thought was very good about the movie was the soundtrack. ---
**Author:** ![kabbes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e99b99/32.png) [@kabbes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kabbes)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2001, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/37 "2001-12-03T13:38:04Z")
Yes, but the whole lightsaber fight was without a doubt the greatest moment in cinematic history (well okay - maybe with a _little_ doubt). The movie is, for me, redeemed by that alone. Again! Again, I say! pan ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/38 "2001-12-05T02:14:07Z")
Yeah, but the acrobatic 3-way lightsaber duel kept on getting interrupted with cuts to:[ul][li]Queen Amidala’s commandoes rapelling up the side of a castle via Batman’s grappling hook guns,[/li][li]Jar Jar doing his Jerry Lewis impersonation by tripping over droid soldiers and inadvertently blowing them up, and[/li][li]The bratty kid screaming, “Now this is pod racing!”[/ul][/li]Bleah. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/39 "2001-12-05T03:09:39Z")
> [@](#): > > The bratty kid screaming, “Now this is pod racing!” No, the worst line of his was this: “Let’s try spinning… _that_’s a good trick!” _The fucking kid was getting shot at! He was going to die! There was death and destruction going on all around him!! And Lucas thought THAT would be a good line?!?_ ::sigh:: Sorry, the Jar Jar Pit thread got me worked up. (Didja know that they used the word “Yippee” _four times_ in that movie?!?) ---
**Author:** ![Tenebras](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@Tenebras](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tenebras)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2001, 4:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643/40 "2001-12-05T04:08:44Z")
Am I the only one who thought that the lightsaber battle in TPM was a little bit lame? I mean, great, they jump and spin and flip around to dramatic music, but it’s like watching Jackie Chan. Who cares anymore? I personally like the lightsaber duel in the end of RotJ better, it had atmosphere. When Luke is hiding and refusing to fight until Vader hits on Leia, (whoah… that sounds wierd…) and then he comes out with a swell of the orchestra and starts wailing on Vader. It’s sword fighting like you believe sword fighting could happen. But in TPM I was sitting in the theater saying “who cares?” It’s the same feeling I had in Crouching Tiger (which I thought was way overrated). If you’re so amazing and you can fly, there’s no dramatic element anymore. I can’t watch the fight and see a logical ebb and flow because it’s all so capricious. Again, same as the Matrix. “I know kung fu.” Big fat hairy deal. It’s not two people fighting anymore, it’s two cartoon characters. Also, if people fight like this in TPM, why don’t they fight like that in the original series. Why was there nothing even remotely resembling that in the original series? Which brings me to my main complaint with TPM, it doesn’t fit at all. The whole schtick about C3-PO being built by Anakin is BS. (In the original movie, C3PO says one of his first jobs was working on systems similar to the moisture ‘vaporators, maybe while taking a sabbatical from doing some punk kid’s chores?) I have a tape on the making of Star Wars in which George Lucas says that the Star Wars universe has it’s own feel, like it’s kind of old and broken in. So he totally abandoned that to have everything all shiny and new and goofy (giant balls of blue stuff, what the hell?!). What would have made more sense would be to show ships that it looked like the original series ships’ predecessors. how cool would that be? But of course not, they wouldn’t glow with that happy computer generated sparkle. Oh, and Yoda was 900 in ESB, so he’s what, 850 on the generous side in TPM? Then why does he look so young? Do 85 year olds look significantly younger than 90 year olds? And he was shiny! I hate CG characters. In fact, see the next paragraph… Now, the CGI characters, say this with me now, _don’t look real_. They look CG. (Am I the only one who thinks this? Why does the T-Rex in Jurassic Park look better than any of the characters in TPM?) And they are totally gratitous. The entire flick is one huge “look what I can do!” Where the original movies had a few isolated scenes where the camera panned back and showed something cool and breathtaking for the sake of a cool and breathtaking shot, the entirety of TPM felt like that. Again, Mr. Lucas on tape saying that the FX should drive the story, and not the other way around. Doesn’t this guy have a freaking VCR? Finally, nothing happened in the whole damn movie. The pod race was 10 minutes of one shot over and over again. (racer goes by making a “whump whump whump” noise, followed by another going “roo-too-too-too-too” then again, “whump whump whump” – “roo-too-too-too-too” Criminy!) Nine year olds are not gods. _They_ think they are gods, and that is why the rest of us are around to disabuse them of this notion. Oh, and of course the obligatory Jar-Jar complaint. Michelle Tanner with floppy ears. I didn’t like the Olsen twins and I certainly don’t like you you Jamaican freak… “How wude!” indeed. To sum up, TPM is definately the worst, almost completely unwatchable and an abomination. It doesn’t even make sense… But Lucas should not be let anywhere near the original series. Just imagine how much he could screw them all up. He could add random scenes of Stormtroopers riding bucking pack animals, or disregard the maxim that monsters are scarier when you don’t see them so clearly and put in long sequences of the snow monster thing in ESB, or completely redo the Jabba the Hutt palace musical number and turn Boba Fett from a B\*d \*ss M-- (shut your mouth!) into some sort of pimp, or… oh yeah, he already did that. And he didn’t even fix the glaring errors like Vader’s lightsaber being a plain white stick as he walks toward the closing blast doors. Ye gods what was he thinking! Er, sorry about that. I’ve been keeping it bottled up for a long time. I feel better now, my temples don’t throb. Tenebras [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/of-the-4-star-wars-movies/95643.md?page=3)