# Off-duty actions of public figures in general/Shirvell/Armstrong case in particular **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 29, 2010, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505 "2010-09-29T19:12:44Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 16\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Typo\_Knig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@Typo\_Knig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Knig)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 3:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/181 "2010-10-27T03:05:03Z")
I’m afraid there will be at least one early death from this case. But all the forms have been obeyed. ---
**Author:** ![Ionizer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/5daacb/32.png) [@Ionizer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ionizer)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/182 "2010-10-27T14:12:41Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > [Protection Order Against Shirvell Denied](http://www.queerty.com/judge-denies-u-michs-chris-armstrongs-protection-order-against-crazed-blogger-andrew-shirvell-20101025/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed:+queerty2+%28Queerty%29) > > Shirvell meanwhile is threatening to sue the U. of Michigan for banning him from campus. WRONG! There was no hearing, no judge involved in this. See [here](http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/10/25/chris-armstrong-drops-req_n_773441.html), please. From that article: “_The petition for a personal protection order was dismissed by Chris Armstrong because he received assurance that he will no longer be contacted by Andrew Shirvell," Armstrong’s lawyer, U. Ashwin Patel, said in an e-mail to The Associated Press._” Nice try, though 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/183 "2010-10-27T16:54:29Z")
Right- it was denied without prejudice, which typically means at the request of the filing party. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/184 "2010-10-27T19:30:00Z")
[QUOTE=Ionizer] Nice try, though 😉 [/QUOTE] Well, the article’s not my doing. I do wonder if Shirvell’s promise to keep away from Armstrong was in writing or an informal agreement. I certainly hope the little weasel’s legal fees bankrupt him and leave him in debt up to his itty bitty eyeballs. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2010, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/185 "2010-11-04T02:44:56Z")
Latest chapter in the melodrama: [Armstrong, attorney file complaints seeking possible disbarment for Ass’t AG Shirvell](http://www.michigandaily.com/content/armstrong-attorney-file-complaints-seeking-possible-disbarment-asst-ag-shirvell) From that: > [@](#): > > Armstrong’s complaint centers around [Michigan Rules of Professional Conduct] rule 8.4, which defines “misconduct” under the Michigan Rules of Professional Conduct, according to a press release issued by Gordon. > > “The Rule states, in part, that ‘it is professional misconduct for a lawyer to … engage in conduct involving dishonesty, fraud, deceit, misrepresentation, or violation of the criminal law, where such conduct reflects adversely on the lawyer’s honesty, trustworthiness or fitness as a lawyer,’ ” Gordon wrote in the release. I again have a feeling that they’re less out to disbar than to bankrupt the creep. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [November 8, 2010, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/186 "2010-11-08T23:35:06Z")
Now [fired](http://tpmmuckraker.talkingpointsmemo.com/2010/11/michigan_asst_ag_fired_for_attacking_gay_student_o.php) ---
**Author:** ![descamisado](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e480ec/32.png) [@descamisado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/descamisado)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/187 "2010-11-09T00:19:30Z")
Here’s something I posted in the Pit thread about this situation: > [@](#): > > “Why do I get the feeling that if he is somehow disbarred or dismissed, he’ll be welcomed with open strait-jacket arms by some organization like the Family Research Council, the American Family Association, the Alliance Defense Fund, the Faith & Freedom Coalition or something similar?” Who wants to make a wager about how long it’ll be? ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/188 "2010-11-09T00:35:55Z")
I love this from his lawyer (Thomas), who has previously called Shirvell “the victim” in this story: > [@](#): > > Thomas said that the ruling “smells political to me,” and that “there’s been a tremendous piling on against Andrew. The liberal media started this tempest in a teapot.” While I’ve no doubt Shirvell’s already got the papers filled out and the arguments written for his reinstatement, I think even most conservatives would agree that- whether he’s within his legal and constitutional rights or not- Shirvell’s a first order nut. If a gay assistant AG was attacking the head of the Baptist Student Union or Young Republicans as vigorously and with as little basis in reality or concern for defamation as this guy has gone after Armstrong I’d say the same thing and Fox News would be calling for a spike, an axe and a chopping block. The craziest thing is that Shirvell doesn’t seem to address any specifics of Armstrong’s presidency that he has a beef with other than he’s gay (which he is) and that he’s “privileged” and a “racist” as Shirvell defines the terms, though his definition seems to be “according to my whims and the voices in my pointed little head”. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 12:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/189 "2010-11-09T00:45:14Z")
> [@](#): > > Attorney General Mike Cox said in a statement Shirvell was let go for “conduct unbecoming a state employee, especially that of an assistant attorney general.” > Cox added that an investigation showed that Shirvell “repeatedly violated office policies, engaged in borderline stalking behavior, and inappropriately used state resources.” He had previously been suspended. Cox obviously did this more to bow to the public pressure than outrage, but I wonder if “state resources” just means he blogged from work. I also wonder if the ACLU is going to assist him- I can see why they would review the case at least since it’s a gray area. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2010, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/190 "2010-11-09T00:59:17Z")
> [@Sampiro](#): > > I love this from his lawyer (Thomas), who has previously called Shirvell “the victim” in this story: > > "Thomas said that the ruling “smells political to me,” and that “there’s been a tremendous piling on against Andrew. The liberal media started this tempest in a teapot.” > > While I’ve no doubt Shirvell’s already got the papers filled out and the arguments written for his reinstatement, I think even most conservatives would agree that- whether he’s within his legal and constitutional rights or not- Shirvell’s a first order nut. If a gay assistant AG was attacking the head of the Baptist Student Union or Young Republicans as vigorously and with as little basis in reality or concern for defamation as this guy has gone after Armstrong I’d say the same thing and Fox News would be calling for a spike, an axe and a chopping block. > > The craziest thing is that Shirvell doesn’t seem to address any specifics of Armstrong’s presidency that he has a beef with other than he’s gay (which he is) and that he’s “privileged” and a “racist” as Shirvell defines the terms, though his definition seems to be “according to my whims and the voices in my pointed little head”. Actually, it smell political to me too. IMO Cox didn’t fire him before the election for fear of upsetting the conservative Republican base. So he fired him a week later, so the AG’s office wouldn’t continue to have an ongoing scandal under the scrutiny of national media. ---
**Author:** ![Sampiro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2acd7d/32.png) [@Sampiro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sampiro)\ **Post date:** [January 25, 2011, 1:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/191 "2011-01-25T01:58:19Z")
Some more has come to light about Shirvell’s prior activities and he had in fact been disciplined before for bullying and harassing others while as a state employee. ([Cite](http://www.ontopmag.com/article.aspx?id=7382&MediaType=1&Category=26)- there are others.) [At one altercation](http://www.detnews.com/article/20110124/POLITICS02/101240322/1024/POLITICS03/Report--Andrew-Shirvell-targeted-others)he identified himself as a Michigan AG when threatening to have somebody prosecuted for assault for touching him. I wonder if any of this can be influential in his disbarrment proceedings (which Armstrong and a couple of others have begun the gears for- not sure how one goes about getting a lawyer disbarred in MI) or if it makes the state AG’s office more culpable when his file already included write-ups for the same type of behavior before Armstrong. I also wonder how Shirvell’s paying his rent these days. ---
**Author:** ![boytyperanma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/4491bb/32.png) [@boytyperanma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/boytyperanma)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 6:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/192 "2015-01-12T06:53:20Z")
Kinda surprised how long ago this first made news. In any case here is an update. > **[Court: State lawyer’s ‘bullying’ of gay student not protected by 1st Amendment](https://www.lgbtqnation.com/2015/01/court-lawyers-rants-against-gay-student-not-protected-by-first-amendment/?PageSpeed=noscript)** > > The court said attorney general’s office was justified in firing Andrew Shirvell in 2010 because his posts on Facebook and an anti-gay blog, as well as his campus visits and TV appearances, had an adverse impact on the agency’s credibility... ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/193 "2015-01-12T15:00:21Z")
Oh, god, he moved to Florida. ETA: But he’s not licensed to practice law here. Phew. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/194 "2015-01-12T15:18:02Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Oh, god, he moved to Florida. > > ETA: But he’s not licensed to practice law here. Phew. Yet. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/195 "2015-01-12T16:20:36Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > And as has been extensively discussed above, none of the actions of this guys quite fit into any of the laws, or if they do are protected by the First Amendment. Well, three judges disagree with Bricker (and me, too). Can’t say I’m sorry to be wrong about this one, although I’m always troubled by off duty behavior giving rise to employment actions. Still, this guy was probably too loony for state employment of any kind, and that’s saying a lot. > [@](#): > > “Shirvell’s conduct undermined one of the department’s specific missions — i.e. the integrity of its anti-cyberbullying campaign,” said judges Stephen Borrello, Christopher Murray and Peter O’Connell. “By employing an individual such as Shirvell, whose conduct Cox agreed amounted to bullying, the department undermined its own message.” ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [January 12, 2015, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505/196 "2015-01-12T16:41:44Z")
It wasn’t just off-duty behavior. He also used the resources of the AG’s office to investigate his victim and contacted him during work hours at least once. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-actions-of-public-figures-in-general-shirvell-armstrong-case-in-particular/555505.md?page=9)