# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/1 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")
He was riding in the jump seat, presumably on the way home? Thankfully the crew was able to subdue him and he was taken into custody when they landed at Portland. There’s almost certainly a bigger story as to why this guy tried to commit mass murder. > **[Off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot charged with attempted murder after trying to...](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/man-charged-attempted-murder-trying-shut-alaska-airlines-engines-fligh-rcna121681)** > > Flight 2059 from Everett, Washington, was bound for San Francisco when it was diverted to Portland, where Joseph David Emerson was booked on 83 counts of attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/2 "2023-10-23T18:01:17Z")
The pilot sounds pretty cool and collected: > “As a heads up. We’ve got the guy that tried to shut the engines down out of the cockpit. It doesn’t sound like he’s got any issue in the back right now. I think he’s subdued," the pilot of the plane told air traffic control. “ **Other than that** we want law enforcement as soon as we get on the ground and parked.” « yeah someone tried to crash the plane and kill us all, but other than that…" ---
**Author:** ![Si\_Amigo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/si_amigo/32/2877_2.png) [@Si\_Amigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Si_Amigo)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/3 "2023-10-23T18:17:05Z")
In a second notification, the FAA clarified that the security event is not connected to current world events. I guess maybe he just doesn’t like Mondays. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/4 "2023-10-23T18:17:28Z")
Glad the suicidal pilot wasn’t on duty flying. There would be less crew to react and stop someone at the controls. Scary stuff. ---
**Author:** ![Eric1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/3bc359/32.png) [@Eric1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eric1)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/5 "2023-10-23T18:34:47Z")
That must’ve been quick hog-tieing behind the cockpit there, like i learned in Cub Scouts or something. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/6 "2023-10-23T18:43:14Z")
According to the story on CNN, the NBC headline cited on the OP may be misleading. It was technically an Alaska Airlines (ASA) flight but was actually being operated by Horizon Air, a regional carrier owned by ASA. So this guy may have been a pilot with the regional carrier, or maybe some other airline altogether. It’s a real black eye for whatever airline employed him so it doesn’t seem fair to assume it’s ASA until we know for sure. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/7 "2023-10-23T19:02:36Z")
I don’t know where to begin with this one. When I was an airline pilot I rode in a lot of jumpseats. Mostly, I wanted to stay out of the way as much as possible. It always felt like I was invading the crews’ space, despite my welcoming other pilots into my jumpseat when I was flying. So I can’t imagine someone doing something that insane. As mentioned by Wolfpup, the guy could have been a pilot for another carrier, going to or from work, or even just on personal travel. The security system in place for jumpseating was beefed up after 9/11. I wonder what they’ll do now, despite this being a vanishingly rare occurrence. It’s already much harder to travel as a “non-rev” these days because flights are so full. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/8 "2023-10-23T19:07:45Z")
Much more detailed info as to exactly what happened here: > **['20 minutes of pure hell' after off-duty pilot allegedly tried to shut off...](https://www.seattletimes.com/business/boeing-aerospace/alaska-air-off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-off-engines-on-flight-from-everett/)** > > An off-duty Alaska Airlines pilot riding on a flight out of Everett was subdued in-flight after allegedly attempting to shut down the plane's engines. From the article: > [@](#): > > …A Federal Aviation Administration notice distributed to all U.S. airlines on its Domestic Events alert network provides another detail on what the notice called a “significant security event.” > > The “jump seat passenger” attempted “to disable aircraft engines while at cruise altitude by deploying the engine fire suppression system.” > > “The crew was able to subdue the suspect and was removed from the flight deck,” the notice states. > > The engine fire suppression system on the E175 jet is activated by two handles on the instrument panel on the ceiling of the cockpit above the pilots. One controlling the left engine is above the right shoulder of the captain in the left seat and the other is about the left shoulder of the first officer in the right seat. > > To activate they must reach up and pull the handle down and turn it to lock it in place. Pulling the handle cuts electrical and hydraulic power to the engine and closes the fuel line. > > Turning the handle then releases a pressurized bottle of fire-suppressing halon gas. > > Alaska Air spokesperson Alexa Rudin said via email that “fortunately some residual fuel remains in the line, and the quick reaction of our crew to reset the handles restored fuel flow and prevented fuel starvation.” Wow, this could have turned out much more tragically. 😲 ---
**Author:** ![Monty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/monty/32/47_2.png) [@Monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Monty)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/9 "2023-10-23T20:13:38Z")
Never mind. ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/10 "2023-10-23T20:24:45Z")
> [@robby](#): > > Wow, this could have turned out much more tragically. 😲 It most certainly could have, but I still want to point out that disabling the engines doesn’t mean the plane instantly falls out of the sky. Airliners can glide pretty well, and I can think of two incidents where airliners have run out of fuel in cruise and were able to glide to a safe landing. The potential for tragedy was most definitely there, but it wouldn’t necessarily have ended that way. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/11 "2023-10-23T20:31:04Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > and I can think of two incidents where airliners have run out of fuel in cruise I assume one of them was the Gimli Glider? ---
**Author:** ![WildaBeast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wildabeast/32/6_2.png) [@WildaBeast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WildaBeast)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/12 "2023-10-23T20:38:37Z")
Yes. The other was [Air Transat Flight 236](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Air_Transat_Flight_236). Interesting that both incidents involved Canadian airlines. I’m sure it’s just a coincidence. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/13 "2023-10-23T20:40:09Z")
Gimli Glider was caused by an error converting pounds of fuel to litres. It’s the metric system’s fault! ---
**Author:** ![jnglmassiv](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/f07891/32.png) [@jnglmassiv](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jnglmassiv)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/14 "2023-10-23T20:49:24Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > Airliners can glide pretty well, and I can think of two incidents where airliners have run out of fuel in cruise and were able to glide to a safe landing. True but how many times has this been attempted with a crazed lunatic in the cockpit violently (I assume) trying to disable more critical systems? What a crazy story. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/15 "2023-10-23T20:52:36Z")
> [@WildaBeast](#): > > > [@robby](#): > > > > Wow, this could have turned out much more tragically. 😲 > > It most certainly could have, but I still want to point out that disabling the engines doesn’t mean the plane instantly falls out of the sky. Airliners can glide pretty well, and I can think of two incidents where airliners have run out of fuel in cruise and were able to glide to a safe landing. The potential for tragedy was most definitely there, but it wouldn’t necessarily have ended that way. Granted—I can think of one: that of the [Gimli Glider](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwiS7YzggI2CAxXStokEHYuuAIEQFnoECB8QAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FGimli_Glider&usg=AOvVaw2kFUYZvg_iWph_xIR7BtTW&opi=89978449). And of course there was the [Miracle on the Hudson](https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwimp7WZgY2CAxUJvokEHSszCRwQFnoECBoQAQ&url=https%3A%2F%2Fen.wikipedia.org%2Fwiki%2FUS_Airways_Flight_1549&usg=AOvVaw1pLe1DJEEyvlW5hdZqov4A&opi=89978449), which didn’t involve running out of fuel but instead was caused by a bird strike. Nevertheless, I was simply pointing out the fact that there could have easily have been a tragic result here, and the two examples I’ve cited are notable for how tragedy was near-miraculously averted. In the case of the Gimli Glider incident, one of the pilots happened to be an experienced glider pilot, and in the Miracle on the Hudson, Captain Sullenberger was unquestionably a hero as he started from such a low altitude and speed while still managing to conduct “the most successful ditching in aviation history”. But often the result is more like this [tragedy](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethiopian_Airlines_Flight_961). The pilots still got a lot of credit for the fact that not everyone died. Good reference here: > **[List of airline flights that required gliding](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_airline_flights_that_required_gliding)** > > Airplane gliding occurs when all the engines shut down, but the wings are still functional and can be used for a controlled descent. This is a very rare condition in multi-engine airliners, though it is the obvious result when a single-engine airplane experiences engine failure. The most common cause of engine shutdown is fuel exhaustion or fuel starvation, but there have been other cases in aviation history of multiple engine failure due to bird strikes, flying through volcano ash, ingesting... ETA: I need to type faster or more succinctly. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Ike\_Witt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ike_witt/32/283_2.png) [@Ike\_Witt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ike_Witt)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 8:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/16 "2023-10-23T20:59:26Z")
Never mind… ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/17 "2023-10-23T21:12:09Z")
You sure he wasn’t reaching for the switch to turn on the coffee pot? 🤔 Nah he knew what the switches do. : ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/18 "2023-10-23T22:16:59Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > Glad the suicidal pilot wasn’t on duty flying. There would be less crew to react and stop someone at the controls. I am surprised the pilots were able to react fast enough to stop him. There has to be a few seconds to process what is happening. I believe the fire extinguishers for a commercial jet engine is a little more involved than pushing a button but I didn’t think it took all that many actions to accomplish either…read it can be accomplished in a moment if you know how they are operated…which this guy presumably did (IANAP). ETA: I also assume this pilot was coming from behind the two pilots flying so they would not see him coming (probably). ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/19 "2023-10-23T22:19:57Z")
Fire handles are very distinctively shaped. And any jet pilot would instantly recognize them for what they are even if riding in that type’s cockpit for the first time. They all work about the same way too. Nobody who was sane / sensible would fiddle with them. It appears the jet was an Embraer E175 belonging to Horizon Air while the suspect was an Alaska airlines pilot. Horizon is the primary (and maybe even sole) RJ/Express carrier for Alaska. I have long thought that it would be easy for a working pilot or jumpseater to kill themselves and most of everybody else by shutting down the engines at an inopportune time. Either by the fire handles or the ordinary on/off levers/switches. Which are also instantly recognizable to a pro. That was a risk I really had no defense against if my co-worker turned out to be a suicidal wacko that day. Him choosing to do this in cruise is puzzling as a matter of tactics. He could have pulled the same stunt much closer to the ground and they’d all be dead now with the rest of the world wondering why pending more investigation. By pulling the handles in cruise he maximized the chances the crew could recover. Now maybe his planned next move was to kill the pilots and that didn’t go so well. Or had a change of heart or broke the spell of demonic possession or … As @Llama_Llogophile says, this will really increase the pressure to tighten up the regs about jumpseaters. That is a two-edged sword, as there have been a few mishaps and many aw-shits avoided by an extra brain & pair of hands in the cockpit. Oddly, one of my personal briefing points to jumpseaters was always how their main job was to slow down or stop an attacker coming through the door. But what if _the call is coming from inside the house?_ Not my circus, not my monkeys now. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/20 "2023-10-23T22:32:27Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I am surprised the pilots were able to react fast enough to stop him. There has to be a few seconds to process what is happening. I believe the fire extinguishers for a commercial jet engine is a little more involved than pushing a button but I didn’t think it took all that many actions to accomplish either (IANAP). All the articles I’ve found so far can’t be read with adblock in place, so I haven’t seen the details. To shut down the engines with the fire handles is typically just pull the big gripping handle straight out maybe 1/2". Typically there’s a mechanical interlock to prevent the handle being pulled unless a fire is being sensed on that engine. But there’s also typically a mechanical override button right under the handle to override that interlock. Interlocked or not, it’s intended to be doable with one hand in less than a second from “grip” to “pulled”. Not much force is required. Once pulled the engine is will quit running almost instantly. Deploying the fire extinguisher is simply a matter of twisting the already-pulled handle left or right maybe 45 degrees. Also nearly instant. The extinguishers spray into the areas outside the engine body, inside the cowling. You know, the place where fire isn’t supposed to be, not where it is supposed to be. So for a normally running engine triggering the extinguisher has no effect on the engine’s operability. Because of where the handles are on the 175 (and many other types), the jumpseater could probably reach up and grab both without either pilot noticing; He and they are far enough aft that a pilot would need a reason to turn around to put either in their field of view. Once in that posture it’d be a fraction of a second to turn both handles & deploy both extinguishers. Other airplanes place them just aft of the throttles and any reaching into that area would probably be noticed by the working pilots while still in progress. But surprise & startle would still be a factor; no guarantee they’d see & react in time to prevent at least the shutdown. Once shut down, the restart is pretty straightforward, if rather busy. _If_ you have altitude, aren’t engaged in a fist or knife fight, and nothing else goes wrong, there’s no reason to expect a disaster. But it’s also a situation fraught with very severe consequences if things don’t go well. Gliding a jet to a successful landing is called a miracle precisely because so much has to go right situationally for even somebody like Sully or Yeager to pull it off. Heck, if the bad guy just yanked the fire shutoff handles then sat on his hands, the working pilots could have shoved the handles back in and maybe gotten an immediate re-light on one or both engines. With one running the rest of the exercise is much less adrenaline-inducing. For damned sure charging this guy with 83 counts of attempted murder is 100% a correct reading of the gravity of his actions. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=2)