# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Common\_Tater](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/common_tater/32/13846_2.png) [@Common\_Tater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Common_Tater)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/181 "2023-11-10T21:42:38Z")
Drunks on the road don’t intend to harm anyone either. The guy just doesn’t show good judgment at all. “I’m kinda fucked in the head, so tripping on shrooms oughtta get my mind right, especially after I haven’t slept for a few days. Fly the friendly skies!” Yeah, F him. ---
**Author:** ![Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba9def/32.png) [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Just_Asking_Questions)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/182 "2023-11-10T22:13:21Z")
Not everyone, but some here are what I would call far too forgiving. Imagine you, or your wife, or your mom, or hell your dog were on the plane. And he succeeded in crashing it (whether that was his intent or not). You willing to die for some “poor soul having a mental health crisis”, that he himself caused? I’m not in a forgiving mood! ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/183 "2023-11-10T22:14:01Z")
I wouldn’t, but I’d see it as manslaughter rather than murder. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/184 "2023-11-10T22:19:17Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Not everyone, but some here are what I would call far too forgiving. Imagine you, or your wife, or your mom, or hell your dog were on the plane. I imagine if that were the case, then I’d be far too emotionally invested in the scenario to objectively weigh his criminality and culpability. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/185 "2023-11-10T22:46:45Z")
> [@Just\_Asking\_Questions](#): > > Not everyone, but some here are what I would call far too forgiving. Imagine you, or your wife, or your mom, or hell your dog were on the plane. And he succeeded in crashing it (whether that was his intent or not). You willing to die for some “poor soul having a mental health crisis”, that he himself caused? So we should do… what? Punish the hell out of him - charge him with so many attempted murders he never sees the light of day again? That will continue to disincentivize pilots seeking treatment for any sort of mental health disorder and ultimately create more chances for wives, moms and dogs to be on a doomed plane. There are already many incentives to NOT sabotage aircraft, including the natural desire to not kill oneself. This is usually (but not always) enough to prevent that sort of thing, along with our security measures. I’d say this man should _probably_ never fly again. Or perhaps he should face a similar situation a pilot with alcoholism does when they do not confess in advance and are caught working under the influence: Suspension for some period of time, strip all pilot ratings. Earn them back if you can and good luck getting re-hired. Or maybe he still has a role to play - eventually becoming the poster-person for pilots seeking help. He seems to be forthright and accepting responsibility so far. I don’t think he should be summarily thrown away. In any case, given the details here I don’t see much advantage to taking an overly punitive approach that leads to incarceration. I’d guess most professional pilots had the same reaction I had to hearing about this: “Thank Og I didn’t do something like that. Gotta keep being careful.” ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 10:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/186 "2023-11-10T22:51:41Z")
> [@Common\_Tater](#): > > “I’m kinda fucked in the head, so tripping on shrooms oughtta get my mind right, especially after I haven’t slept for a few days. But what if he was thinking: “I’m kinda fucked in the head, so tripping on shrooms oughtta get my mind right, especially since I dasn’t seek help and let my employer know I’ve got an issue.” ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/187 "2023-11-10T23:02:18Z")
I should have thought of this earlier - there is a diversion program for pilots with alcohol problems called Human Intervention Motivation Study (HIMS). Maybe something similar should exist for mental health. Here’s an article about a pilot who did not go through HIMS, but whose case influenced it: > **[For Pilots Struggling With Alcoholism, It Doesn’t Have to Be a Career-Ender](https://www.smithsonianmag.com/air-space-magazine/recovery-deep-stall-180974455/)** > > Lyle Prouse was trained to maintain control in the air, but he had to learn to do it in life. ---
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/188 "2023-11-10T23:16:30Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > For him to continue flying in that mental condition – aside from the question of any drugs – was the equivalent of an extremely intoxicated alcoholic believing that he can drive Except he _wasn’t_ flying the plane. He was the equivalent of a drunk _passenger_ in a car. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/189 "2023-11-10T23:27:07Z")
No, first of all I was referring to his obvious long-term depression and what now appears to have been psychosis, not to his deadheading in the cockpit – which as pointed out above entails some of the same responsibilities as active flight crew. But much more seriously, he was scheduled to operate a flight as Captain shortly after arriving in San Francisco. Again, not passing judgment on what the consequences should be for him, but just getting the facts straight, as I understand them. There’s a balance that has to be found between punishment as a deterrence – lest others engage in the same activity and use mental illness as a (possibly fabricated) defense – and the best outcome for this individual and his family. I fear that no good outcome may be possible, considering the societal desire for retribution and his already much worsened mental condition. But my view does incline towards mental health treatment as the highest priority, as opposed to lengthy imprisonment. ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/190 "2023-11-10T23:34:25Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > But much more seriously, he was scheduled to operate a flight as Captain shortly after arriving in San Francisco. According to that article, he was next scheduled to fly six days after trying the mushrooms, or four days after arriving in SF. So not that shortly. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2023, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/191 "2023-11-10T23:36:27Z")
The original articles right after it happened said that his employer had said he was scheduled to work later on the day he had the event. If subsequent articles have updated that preliminary info, that’s certainly a good bit of news for this guy. One of the very, very few bits of good news. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 2:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/192 "2023-11-11T02:02:48Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Except he _wasn’t_ flying the plane. He was the equivalent of a drunk _passenger_ in a car. Sure, if we’re talking about a drunk passenger sitting next to the driver, where he can reach over and grab the steering wheel and/or great shift. This guy wasn’t just a random passenger in economy class; sitting in a jump seat _in the cockpit_ within easy reach of levers that control the fate of scores of other people meant that a great deal more trust had been placed in him than is ever placed in ordinary passengers. His violation far exceeds that of a drunk economy-class passenger who stumbles forward and pounds on the outside of the cockpit door. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 2:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/193 "2023-11-11T02:42:15Z")
I think we can simultaneously say that the zero tolerance approach to mild and common mental health struggles such as depression is detrimental to safety, and should be reformed; and that, notwithstanding those circumstances, the choices made by this pilot were so egregious that he must never fly again and probably deserves some prison time. These things can both be true. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/194 "2023-11-11T02:50:51Z")
Agreed. The trick is to actually do both of them, not just talk about doing them. And do the much harder first one soon enough that nobody else ends up at the extreme place this guy got to where trying mushrooms (or other serious self-medications) sounded like the least bad solution to his personal dilemma. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/195 "2023-11-11T04:18:46Z")
This makes it sound as if he reached for mushrooms in a desperate attempt to treat a condition because his world would allow no other option. The NYT article above says: > [@NYT](#): > > "…since taking psychedelic mushrooms two days earlier, during a weekend getaway with friends to commemorate the death of his best friend. It was a loss that had plunged him into deep grief and triggered a search for help with what he realized were longstanding mental health issues. It isn’t clear from this whether the mushrooms were a group experience, socially / recreationally, during a bonding weekend, or a personal search for effective self-medication where the experiment happened on this weekend. I think it makes a difference which one, though of course the two aren’t completely mutually exclusive; he’d probably heard about using mushrooms for depression and maybe researched it. But doing drugs with your friends on a camping trip is kind of a bad way to go about seeking treatment, and I think the “self-medication for depression etc.” would fit a LOT of casual / recreational use of everything from cannabis to fentanyl. Yes, we in general and the aviation industry in particular need to do a much better job of mental health everything, but I still think he made some unforgivable choices. It’s not like 83 counts of attempted murder will get him executed (I hope!), but he did make a very serious mistake as a result of circumstances largely within his control. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/196 "2023-11-11T04:21:59Z")
Agreed overall. As to this: > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > and I think the “self-medication for depression etc.” would fit a LOT of casual / recreational use of everything from cannabis to fentanyl. My PCP has a saying: “Tell me your drug of abuse and I’ll tell you what social or psychological problem you’re treating.” She’s only partly kidding. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/197 "2023-11-11T04:32:22Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My PCP I still can’t get used to the alternate meaning for this acronym, I always do a double take. But hey, you’re no longer flying, take all the angel dust you want! Just try not to eat anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Dinsdale](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/97f17d/32.png) [@Dinsdale](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dinsdale)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/198 "2023-11-11T12:25:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My PCP has a saying: “Tell me your drug of abuse and I’ll tell you what social or psychological problem you’re treating.” She’s only partly kidding. When Social Security stopped paying disability for substance abuse - guess what? All of those people actually weren’t working due to mental impairments! 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/199 "2023-11-11T12:54:02Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > My PCP has a saying: My PCP (who has since retired) asked me one year about my drug and alcohol use. I very honestly told him how much alcohol I drank and the amount of cannabis I used. He sat looking at his computer screen, frowning. He asked if I would cut back if he explained about the harm it was potentially causing and I told him no. He knew me socially and we’d shared a pint or two. He then explained that if he filled out the form honestly it would throw up a ton of red flags that his partners would tsk-tsk about and he’d get hell for not acting more aggressively. So he changed all the numbers so he/I could slide by. I am not a pilot, though. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/200 "2023-11-11T15:10:12Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I still can’t get used to the alternate meaning for this acronym, I always do a double take. > > But hey, you’re no longer flying, take all the angel dust you want! Just try not to eat anyone. Which is funny, because although I know of angel dust, that definition is about #12 on my list of meanings for PCP and it never, never occurs to me when I read or hear “PCP”. > [@kayaker](#): > > He asked if I would cut back if he explained about the harm it was potentially causing and I told him no. Nothing wrong in that. You do you and you seem to do it both successfully and with great gusto. To me at least the line between use and abuse is _not_ “Would you (any you) be healthier if you didn’t?”. It’s “Are you (any you) rapidly destroying your life and can’t (not won’t) stop?”. Docs like to use the former definition; I (and you too it seems) prefer the latter. There is a LOT of clear space between those two realities where we all can have more fun at some probabilistic cost to our eventual longevity. I spend a lot of time at the beach & am rather tanned given my very whitebread complexion. My dermatologist is not happy with my decisions, but he’s happy to charge me to slice off the completely predictable cancers. And I’m happy to have him do that. I see that as win-win. Doubtless you do the same about your “unhealthy” habits. I drink more than my PCP prefers, and will eventually get around to experimenting with other recreational substances too. Tough shit, Doc. I know you mean well, but that doesn’t mean I’m doing it your way. It’s nice not being an active pilot anymore. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=11)