# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 11
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2023, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/201 "2023-11-11T15:23:01Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > To me at least the line between use and abuse is _not_ “Would you (any you) be healthier if you didn’t?” No kidding. If that were the line, then every cheeseburger would constitute abuse. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/202 "2023-11-12T15:42:27Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > No kidding. If that were the line, then every cheeseburger would constitute abuse. Having a doctor that is severely obese give health advice is sometimes hard to swallow. But it’s their job, and facts are facts. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/203 "2023-11-12T15:51:29Z")
My doc is chubby too; she’s totally built for comfort not speed. Which is actually beneficial in a way because she knows from her expertise how to eat properly and from her personal experience how difficult that is. Which gives all of her advice on any behavioral health topic a certain groundedness. ---
**Author:** ![Jackson99](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/9de0a6/32.png) [@Jackson99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackson99)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/204 "2023-11-12T17:21:17Z")
It clear he was very suicidal or hallucinating really badly. It sad he is going to jail and not psychiatric hospital but that is way things are in the US. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/205 "2023-11-12T17:33:57Z")
I’m hoping the prosecutor will downgrade the charges. There’s a standard charge they use for disruptive passengers. interference with flight crew members and attendants, a crime that carries a statutory maximum sentence of 20 years in federal prison That would be severe enough. They know now this guy wasn’t a terrorist. His career is ruined and most likely his marriage. They need to consider his state of mind. ---
**Author:** ![Riemann](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/riemann/32/3133_2.png) [@Riemann](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Riemann)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/206 "2023-11-12T17:58:41Z")
> [@aceplace57](#): > > I’m hoping the prosecutor will downgrade the charges. I think it might be more appropriate to charge him with attempted murder, since that accurately represents his actions, but adjust the sentence. I guess that would depend how much flexibility there is in sentencing. I don’t think someone who knowingly takes mind-altering drugs under these circumstances and then tries to kill people should be allowed to use the fact that they made the choice to take mind-altering drugs as mitigation. We need deterrence to operate at all stages of the decision-making process. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/207 "2023-11-12T18:16:18Z")
It’s the usual problem of justice. He had no ill intent, so it seems unfair to punish him. He did cause harm to other people (though fortunately not injury), so it seems unfair to let him off scot-free. He clearly has mental health issues, which should be addressed productively. The number of people who believe that recreational drugs can be used without harm is clearly greater than the number of people who can use recreational drugs without harm, so a disincentive / deterrent seems like a good idea. My idea of justice here is: From the point of view of the individual, that he is barred from holding a pilot’s licence, and possibly also driver’s licence. He is also connected with resources to help him retrain for another job, and to deal with the current issues and process these changes. From the point of view of the victims (passengers & crew; airline), he spend a year or so in jail and have a token portion of his wages garnished for ten years or so to go to the airline. We’ll see what actually happens. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/208 "2023-11-12T18:16:55Z")
> [@Riemann](#): > > I think it might be more appropriate to charge him with attempted murder Attempted murder normally needs a clear intention to kill. Given his mental state, it may be difficult for the prosecution to prove that intention beyond a reasonable doubt. His actions were very dangerous, but did he have the intent to kill everyone on that plane? ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2023, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/209 "2023-11-12T19:51:41Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > His actions were very dangerous, but did he have the intent to kill everyone on that plane? From the details provided in the NYT article I’d say absolutely not. He was delusional, not homicidal or even suicidal. After leaving the cockpit he _asked_ to be restrained. I’m guessing he’s beyond mortified by what he did. Again, I’m not arguing for zero consequences. I just think charging him with attempted murder is completely out of proportion with what occurred. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 10:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/210 "2023-11-13T10:47:37Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Attempted murder normally needs a clear intention to kill. Given his mental state, it may be difficult for the prosecution to prove that intention beyond a reasonable doubt. His actions were very dangerous, but did he have the intent to kill everyone on that plane? I’ve been very curious, but I haven’t seen anywhere whether he has articulated what his intent was in pulling those levers. > [@Dr.Drake](#): > > He had no ill intent, so it seems unfair to punish him. > He did cause harm to other people (though fortunately not injury), so it seems unfair to let him off scot-free. We have no problem punishing people for drunk or reckless driving, even when they don’t hurt anybody else. Outcomes matter, but so does intent (or lack thereof, e.g. a disregard for the safety of others). ---
**Author:** ![TroutMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/troutman/32/6721_2.png) [@TroutMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroutMan)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 2:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/211 "2023-11-13T14:01:48Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > I’ve been very curious, but I haven’t seen anywhere whether he has articulated what his intent was in pulling those levers. The NYT article linked in post #172 has his side of the story. Essentially, he thought he was trapped in a nightmare and that this was the only way to wake up. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 2:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/212 "2023-11-13T14:25:17Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > We have no problem punishing people for drunk or reckless driving, even when they don’t hurt anybody else. Yes, but it depends as well on the nature of the proposed charge. Murder and attempt murder require proving beyond a reasonable doubt that the accused intended to kill. Impaired driving doesn’t have that level of intent. It’s sufficient to prove that the accused drove while impaired. As @Llama_Llogophile says, it’s not an argument that the guy gets off scot-free; just that attempt murder seems to be an inappropriate charge on the facts of this case. ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/213 "2023-11-13T14:27:30Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Impaired driving doesn’t have that level of intent. It’s sufficient to prove that the accused drove while impaired. I agree it wasn’t murder or attempted murder, since he believed he was dreaming. But it wasn’t the equivalent of drunk driving, either. A drunk driver is at least trying to get the car down the road; this guy was the equivalent of a drunk passenger reaching over and trying to crash the car. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/214 "2023-11-13T17:18:19Z")
> [@Machine\_Elf](#): > > We have no problem punishing people for drunk or reckless driving, even when they don’t hurt anybody else. Outcomes matter, but so does intent (or lack thereof, e.g. a disregard for the safety of others). Yes, I know—but drunk or reckless driving is a behaviour likely to be repeated without intervention, while attempted murder of 83 people by psychotic episode while travelling in the cockpit is probably not something this individual would do again. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2023, 5:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/215 "2023-11-13T17:25:55Z")
Nor is it something we have a need to make a “deterrence” statement about socially. Nobody gets into that situation on purpose. Lots of people drive drunk on purpose. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/216 "2023-12-06T02:50:09Z")
He is also facing Federal charges. Emerson will be tangled up in courts for awhile. I would speculate the FAA is investigating him too. He won’t fly anything again. Link [https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/us/oregon-indictment-off-duty-pilot-engine-incident/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2023/12/05/us/oregon-indictment-off-duty-pilot-engine-incident/index.html) > [@](#): > > The grand jury indicted Emerson on one count of endangering aircraft in the first degree and 83 counts of recklessly endangering another person -– one for each person aboard the aircraft at the time of the October 22 incident. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2023, 2:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/217 "2023-12-06T02:51:35Z")
That’s probably about the minimum an honest prosecutor could come up with. ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/218 "2024-01-07T13:38:25Z")
[![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/988j2-4CdgM/maxresdefault.jpg "He is KILLING the Engines!! The Nightmare of Alaska Airlines flight 2059") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=988j2-4CdgM) ---
**Author:** ![Joey\_P](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/919ad9/32.png) [@Joey\_P](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Joey_P)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/219 "2024-01-07T13:39:58Z")
Didn’t mean to drop that without any context. It’s a Mentour Pilot video on this flight. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [January 7, 2024, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/220 "2024-01-07T17:54:39Z")
As I posted in the General Aviation thread, this is a terrific Mentour Pilot production (yet again). Thanks for posting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=10) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=12)