# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/241 "2025-11-19T04:40:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d think attempted mass murder tips the scales toward incarceration. “sorry I was on drugs” seems a bit weak. Dude, just because he was initially **charged** with attempted murder (charges which were later dropped, btw, although the reckless-endangerment charges remain) doesn’t mean he was **guilty** of attempted murder. Didn’t you read the linked article? The findings were that the pilot was having a hallucinogenic perception disorder episode, which I don’t think anybody is contesting, and at no time during it did he have any intent to kill anybody. Hence, you know, the dropping of the attempted murder charges. I’m not saying that the guy should suffer zero consequences for whatever bad decisions he made that unnecessarily heightened the risk of his having a hallucinogenic perception disorder episode while in a crucial responsible position and putting people’s lives at risk. But that’s a very far cry from saying he should be treated as though he’d actually committed attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/242 "2025-11-19T05:03:32Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Had I been the Captain that day there’s a better than 50/50 he’d have been dead long before landing. > > Where I sit today, and did upthread while still working, I think it’s far more important that we not drive other troubled crewmembers underground than that we vent our punishment spleen on this unfortunate fuck-up dude. Killing someone in self defense, in the heat of the moment, is very different from extracting retribution after the threat has been eliminated. If the pilot had killed the guy in the process of preventing him from crashing the plane, i can’t imagine anyone would have criticized the pilot for it. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 6:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/243 "2025-11-19T06:28:35Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > he was initially **charged** with attempted murder (charges which were later dropped, btw, although the reckless-endangerment charges remain) doesn’t mean he was **guilty** of attempted murder. Reckless endangerment is the act of recklessly engaging in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious injury or death to another person. His actions were willful and deliberate and they initially charge him with attempted murder. I guess we can just hope he doesn’t have another hallucinogenic perception disorder episode. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 6:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/244 "2025-11-19T06:36:30Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I guess we can just hope he doesn’t have another hallucinogenic perception disorder episode. And having him serve more jail time would prevent that… ---
**Author:** ![Melbourne](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5e925/32.png) [@Melbourne](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Melbourne)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 7:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/245 "2025-11-19T07:11:14Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > And having him serve more jail time would prevent that… Having him serve more jail time would add the massive cost to the community, provide profit for the private jail system, increase the probability that he have more psychotic episodes like this, all without any more effect on airline safety than just canceling his pilot license. The increased risk of psychotic episodes would not, of course have any effect on airline safety. It’s just that being in jail tends to make people crazy. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Straight depression\* doesn’t make one delusional (or murderous, It’s a truism that depressed people are just too depressed to do anything much. Really depressed people are too depressed to commit suicide, which is why suicide is such a characteristic of recovery. And less depressed people are too depressed to successfully complete suicide (or murder). However, I’d quibble that poor judgement is a defining characteristic of depression, and psychosis is the end point of all mental disorders: it’s the other half of why schizophrenics were treated with electro-shop therapy: people hadn’t distinguished between psychotic depreesion and depressive psychosis. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/246 "2025-11-19T07:24:33Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’d think attempted mass murder tips the scales toward incarceration. “sorry I was on drugs” seems a bit weak. If he walked onto the airplane while seeming normal and later had an epileptic seizure while in the jump seat should he be put in prison or receive treatment for his medical condition? In either case he never flies again. He needs treatment, not incarceration. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > I don’t have any problem with this guy not getting prison time. What’s more bothersome is attribution of his behavior to depression and mushroom intake, when it seems like his mental health issues went well beyond those factors. We are not entitled, as the general public, to a full accounting of his mental and/or physical disorder(s). He will never be allowed to fly as a pilot again and thus the general public won’t have to worry about that potential consequence again. Meanwhile, he is getting his problem treated. > [@Jackmannii](#): > > Interesting (and disturbing) thought: since psychedelics are getting more attention and use in major depression, would people including airline supervisory personnel feel comfortable with someone getting that type of treatment and subsequently returning to flying? From the few studies I’ve seen, hallucinatory effects wear off before long and patients are monitored until those symptoms dissipate. Many pilots receive various forms of treatment that, during that treatment and for a time afterward, results in them being barred from flying. It is already a requirement on the part of the FAA that those pilots must demonstrate that they are safe to pilot an airplane before getting their privileges back. Sometimes, as a result of either the problem or the treatment, they are not permitted to fly again, or not permitted to fly paying passengers. We already have mechanisms in place for this. Over time they have been adjusted and tweaked to reflect modern medicine and better understanding of actual impacts on safety. Also: > [@LSLGuy](#): > > Good bet the FAA who has the final word, will not be approving psychedelics as treatments for depression in pilots any time soon. > [@Magiver](#): > > Reckless endangerment is the act of recklessly engaging in conduct that creates a substantial risk of serious injury or death to another person. I thought it involved _knowing_ that your conduct was reckless. If he had no way to know that it took longer for his system to process psychedelics than the typical person and it was his first experience with mushrooms then he’d have no way of knowing that, wouldn’t he? The FAA requires that a person act as a pilot no sooner than a minimum 8 hours after their last alcoholic drink, and that their blood alcohol level be below 0.04%. If some unfortunate person had their first experience with alcohol and thus were unaware that they had a variation that meant their body processed alcohol much slower than average such that a full 24 hours after their last drink their blood alcohol remained too high to legally fly would it be reckless of them to be flying after that 24 hours _the first time_ when they were _completely unaware_ of that issue? Keeping this guy in jail is NOT going to increase public safety. That was done by barring him from ever acting as a pilot again. > [@needscoffee](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I guess we can just hope he doesn’t have another hallucinogenic perception disorder episode. > > And having him serve more jail time would prevent that… What, you think they don’t have drugs in jail or prison? 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/247 "2025-11-19T07:42:44Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > I guess we can just hope he doesn’t have another hallucinogenic perception disorder episode. > > And having him serve more jail time would prevent that… > [@Broomstick](#): > > What, you think they don’t have drugs in jail or prison? 🤣 It’s called sarcasm. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/248 "2025-11-19T12:15:15Z")
Got it. We really do need an established “sarcasm font” for the internet. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/249 "2025-11-19T15:04:40Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@Jackmannii](#): > > > > I don’t have any problem with this guy not getting prison time. What’s more bothersome is attribution of his behavior to depression and mushroom intake, when it seems like his mental health issues went well beyond those factors. > > We are not entitled, as the general public, to a full accounting of his mental and/or physical disorder(s). He will never be allowed to fly as a pilot again and thus the general public won’t have to worry about that potential consequence again. Meanwhile, he is getting his problem treated. What his exact diagnosis is doesn’t matter. What does is the general public being left with the impression (from the news media, and from outside “experts” weighing in) that psychotic behavior is a manifestation of depression. Depressed people don’t need that false stigma. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/250 "2025-11-19T15:13:17Z")
They certainly do not. I don’t how to fix crappy reporting on the part of the news media. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/251 "2025-11-19T18:12:31Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > His actions were willful and deliberate What?? No they weren’t: didn’t you even read the article? The pilot had no intention of killing anybody when he tried to pull the door levers, and in fact did not believe that his actions **would** harm anyone, because he was having hallucinogenic delusions. > [@Magiver](#): > > and they initially charge him with attempted murder. Sure, before they knew what was going on with him and the hallucinations, they charged him with attempted murder because they thought he might have been attempting murder. **And then they dropped the charges because they found out he wasn’t**. I don’t know how to make this any clearer to you. Sheesh. How in love with ignorance would somebody have to be in order to believe that criminal penalties should be more reflective of what the defendant was **initially** charged with than of the fact that the initial charge was **dropped**? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/252 "2025-11-19T22:52:42Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > And having him serve more jail time would prevent that… Well yes, unless they serve shrooms in the spaghetti sauce in jail. > [@Kimstu](#): > > What?? No they weren’t: Was he forced to take hallucinogenic drugs? ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/253 "2025-11-19T22:54:44Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > Was he forced to take hallucinogenic drugs? Irrelevant to the question of whether he attempted murder. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/254 "2025-11-19T22:56:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Got it. We really do need an established “sarcasm font” for the internet. The standard idea is to put /s after your message. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/255 "2025-11-19T22:57:35Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Irrelevant to the question of whether he attempted murder. It’s not irrelevant to what he was charged with. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/256 "2025-11-19T22:59:01Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not irrelevant to what he was charged with. In fact, it is - you can tell, because they dropped the attempted murder charge. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/257 "2025-11-19T22:59:50Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > > [@Magiver](#): > > > > Was he forced to take hallucinogenic drugs? > > Irrelevant to the question of whether he attempted murder. Exactly. The crimes of murder and attempted murder involve **intent** to murder: no intent, no murder. If you deliberately do something stupid that results in your accidentally killing somebody, or accidentally putting somebody at increased risk of being killed, that can certainly be a crime, but the crime in question is not murder or attempted murder. This isn’t that complicated. > [@Magiver](#): > > It’s not irrelevant to what he was charged with. But your insistence upon those mistaken initial charges is just your attempt at deflection from the fact that upon investigation, the attempted murder charges were dropped. Which you seem to be desperately trying to ignore or gloss over, no matter how often it’s pointed out to you. ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/258 "2025-11-19T23:05:18Z")
I’m not glossing over he almost killed a plane full of people. ---
**Author:** ![needscoffee](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/needscoffee/32/1076_2.png) [@needscoffee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/needscoffee)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/259 "2025-11-19T23:06:20Z")
> [@Magiver](#): > > I’m not glossing over he almost killed a plane full of people What was the intent? ---
**Author:** ![Magiver](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/4491bb/32.png) [@Magiver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Magiver)\ **Post date:** [November 19, 2025, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/260 "2025-11-19T23:09:30Z")
> [@needscoffee](#): > > What was the intent? For negligence? Doesn’t matter. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=14)