# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/21 "2023-10-23T22:36:47Z")
I wonder what it sounded like in the passenger cabin when both engines suddenly shut off. And I wonder if they’ll have to get a cleaning crew to shampoo the passenger seats off. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/22 "2023-10-23T22:40:39Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > All the articles I’ve found so far can’t be read with adblock in place, so I haven’t seen the details. Not sure if [this article](https://abcnews.go.com/US/alaska-airlines-flight-diverted-after-credible-security-threat/story?id=104223059&cid=social_twitter_abcn) has the details you would want but it can be read with an adblock (at least, my adblock causes no problems). ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/23 "2023-10-23T22:40:48Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > …Heck, if the guy just yanked the fire shutoff handles then sat on his hands, the working pilots could have shoved the handles back in and maybe gotten an immediate re-light on one or both engines. There are more details in my Post #8 above. According to an Alaska Airlines spokesperson, the crew did in fact reset the handles, and it sounds like the engines never even shut down. > [@The Seattle Times](#): > > Alaska Air spokesperson Alexa Rudin said via email that “fortunately some residual fuel remains in the line, and the quick reaction of our crew to reset the handles restored fuel flow and prevented fuel starvation.” ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/24 "2023-10-23T22:48:18Z")
Nice way to flush what is presumably a hard-earned career down the drain. ---
**Author:** ![Llama\_Llogophile](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@Llama\_Llogophile](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Llama_Llogophile)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/25 "2023-10-23T22:52:16Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > That is a two-edged sword, as there have been a few mishaps and many aw-shits avoided by an extra brain & pair of hands in the cockpit. Oddly, one of my personal briefing points to jumpseaters was always how their main job was to slow down or stop an attacker coming through the door. Prediction: If jumpseaters become a thing of the past, it will (over time) cause more problems rather than less for exactly the reason you gave. Jumpseaters are extra crew members who can help in a crisis, which they have done much more often than causing them. I hate, hate, hate when security measures introduce their own complications. Like the German pilot who was able to lock his captain out of the cockpit. Couldn’t have happened without the extra security after 9/11. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/26 "2023-10-23T22:52:30Z")
And of course everyone knows the story of FedEx Flight 705. > **[Federal Express Flight 705](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Federal_Express_Flight_705)** > > On April 7, 1994, Federal Express Flight 705, a McDonnell Douglas DC-10-30 cargo jet carrying electronics equipment across the United States from Memphis, Tennessee, to San Jose, California, was the subject of a hijack attempt by Auburn R. Calloway, a Federal Express employee facing possible dismissal at a hearing scheduled for the following day for having lied about his flight hours. He boarded the scheduled flight as a deadhead passenger carrying a guitar case concealing several hammers and Ca... ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/27 "2023-10-23T22:53:34Z")
It will be interesting to learn what his motivations were. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/28 "2023-10-23T22:54:32Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Nice way to flush what is presumably a hard-earned career down the drain. If he had succeeded, he would have lost more than his career. ---
**Author:** ![Love\_Rhombus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/love_rhombus/32/10694_2.png) [@Love\_Rhombus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Love_Rhombus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/29 "2023-10-23T22:58:46Z")
Could they have traced responsibility back to him somehow if it had crashed? And will he be charged where the plane was at the time the engines would have been shut off, or the state where they took off? ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/30 "2023-10-23T23:03:56Z")
> [@snowthx](#): > > Nice way to flush what is presumably a hard-earned career down the drain.   “Career”? He’s flushed the rest of his life down the drain. If and when he’s ever released, he’ll re-enter the world as a decrepit old convicted murderer. > [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Prediction: If jumpseaters become a thing of the past, it will (over time) cause more problems rather than less for exactly the reason you gave. Makes me long for the good old days, when my son spent half the flight time hanging around in the cockpit of an A320 and I’d pop in occasionally to see if he was causing any trouble. When he finally got tired of standing he plopped himself down on the floor to observe the proceedings. One of the flight attendants thought it was very cute. The good old days of innocence! Now they might not even allow accredited pilots in there! It’s so ironic how security features are often double-edged swords, as @LSLGuy said. Keeping a potential extra pilot out of the cockpit might do more harm than good if an emergency arises. And then there’s the extra-strong security doors mandated after 9/11. Which prevented the captain of Germanwings 9525, out on a bathroom break, from being able to get back into the cockpit after the deranged co-pilot decided to crash the plane. ETA: I see I got ninja’d on the Germanwings thing by @Llama_Llogophile. I somehow missed it in the very post that I quoted. ---
**Author:** ![snowthx](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowthx/32/10660_2.png) [@snowthx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/snowthx)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/31 "2023-10-23T23:04:49Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > Like the German pilot who was able to lock his captain out of the cockpit. Couldn’t have happened without the extra security after 9/11. This is what came to mind when I read this story earlier today - [Germanwings disaster](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Germanwings_Flight_9525). ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/32 "2023-10-23T23:04:58Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Him choosing to do this in cruise is puzzling as a matter of tactics. He could have pulled the same stunt much closer to the ground and they’d all be dead now with the rest of the world wondering why pending more investigation. By pulling the handles in cruise he maximized the chances the crew could recover. Suicide attempts are not always rational. Some do not have the nerve to really do it, but are so in the depths of despair that they do _something_. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/33 "2023-10-23T23:07:40Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Him choosing to do this in cruise is puzzling as a matter of tactics. He could have pulled the same stunt much closer to the ground and they’d all be dead now with the rest of the world wondering why pending more investigation. By pulling the handles in cruise he maximized the chances the crew could recover. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > For damned sure charging this guy with 83 counts of attempted murder is 100% a correct reading of the gravity of his actions. I bet your first point will be his lawyer’s tactic at trial to show it was not actually attempted murder but some lesser charge (like reckless endangerment or something). Just guessing. There is a lot we do not know yet. ---
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/34 "2023-10-23T23:08:27Z")
> [@Love\_Rhombus](#): > > Could they have traced responsibility back to him somehow if it had crashed? The black box would probably show the engines were cut off, but not who did it. The voice recorder might have captured some relevant conversation/yelling. ---
**Author:** ![Whack-a-Mole](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whack-a-mole/32/141_2.png) [@Whack-a-Mole](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Whack-a-Mole)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2023, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/35 "2023-10-23T23:30:36Z")
Yeah…the data recorder would show the fire extinguishers being pulled and no reason for doing so. The voice recorder would certainly get the people talking in the cockpit and I am willing to bet there was a lot of “WTF are you doing?” things being said along with commands to restrain the guy. I’d think investigators would figure it out pretty fast as long as those recorders were discovered intact (and they are made to survive an accident). Although, it is possible for the pilots to disable the recorders which has been done by some suicidal pilots in the past (which always made me wonder why the pilots should be able to do that but that is a discussion for another thread I think). ---
**Author:** ![txtumbleweed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/278dde/32.png) [@txtumbleweed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/txtumbleweed)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/36 "2023-10-24T01:06:46Z")
The voice recorder will be interesting. My impression is that the Embraer 175 cockpit isn’t exactly spacious and that the jumpseat folds out to block the cockpit door. It doesn’t sounds as if (thank goodness) this guy was trying all that hard to take the aircraft down. [The suspect is 6’1" 210# according to the booking information.](https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1573087) That’s not a small guy. How do you win that fight in the cockpit with two pilots strapped in their seats and barely enough room to stand up, then get the attacker out of the cockpit when his seat blocks the door? All with no reported upset of the airplane? Can’t wait for the initial report, but will this even go to NTSB or will it be FAA and FBI since no damage or injuries? ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 1:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/37 "2023-10-24T01:14:54Z")
> [@txtumbleweed](#): > > [The suspect is 6’1" 210# according to the booking information.](https://www.mcso.us/PAID/Home/Booking/1573087) That’s not a small guy. How do you win that fight in the cockpit with two pilots strapped in their seats and barely enough room to stand up, then get the attacker out of the cockpit when his seat blocks the door? Per the Seattle Times article, the suspect was allowed to walk to the back of the plane and seat himself in the rear jumpseat in his own, so I’m guessing there probably wasn’t much of a physical scuffle. > [@](#): > > Seated in first class, passenger Paul Stephen said he could see Portland from the plane when he noticed a tall bald man leaving the cockpit by himself, walking past Stephen’s row and down the aisle. > > A flight attendant, who Stephen said looked uncomfortable, told passengers the plane would make an emergency landing in Portland. Then, the plane took a steep dive, he said. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/38 "2023-10-24T01:30:02Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Although, it is possible for the pilots to disable the recorders which has been done by some suicidal pilots in the past (which always made me wonder why the pilots should be able to do that but that is a discussion for another thread I think). There’s a regulatory requirement to be able to disable the CVR after shutdown to preserve the record of something that happened on the flight. Otherwise it’ll record the next 2 hours of an empty cockpit and overwrite whatever was interesting during the flight. As a general matter, every electrical gizmo on the airplane is protected by one or more circuit breakers. Which have historically been located in the cockpit so power can be removed from malfunctioning devices. And so that if a breaker opens, the crew can see that it has and what it is, not merely be mystified that the XYZ gizmo is suddenly dead. So if there is breaker protecting the power supply to the FDR, it’ll probably be somewhere the crew can find and open. Last of all, for somebody intending to crash the jet, you can always switch off all the electricity. So hiding the breakers elsewhere can still be defeated by a determined-enough bad actor. Unrelated to the above … > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Suicide attempts are not always rational. Some do not have the nerve to really do it, but are so in the depths of despair that they do _something_. > [@Smapti](#): > > Per the Seattle Times article, the suspect was allowed to walk to the back of the plane and seat himself in the rear jumpseat in his own, so I’m guessing there probably wasn’t much of a physical scuffle. It’s a commonplace in suicide prevention circles that many attempts are half-hearted at best. A misguided and ultimately ineffectual scream for help. One of the arguments against handguns in the home is that they tend to make even half-hearted attempts into “successes”. Anyhow, @Smapti’s comment seems to indicate the suspect wasn’t highly serious about succeeding in killing himself and everyone else. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/39 "2023-10-24T04:06:47Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I bet your first point will be his lawyer’s tactic at trial to show it was not actually attempted murder but some lesser charge (like reckless endangerment or something). > > Just guessing. There is a lot we do not know yet. Reckless endangerment seems likely since it’s reported the engines never shut down. There have been cases of passengers trying to open the exit door in flight. AFAIK it’s never been successful. That would be endangerment too and not attempted murder. Ultimately it’s the DA’s decision. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2023, 5:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/40 "2023-10-24T05:05:05Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Gliding a jet to a successful landing is called a miracle precisely because so much has to go right situationally for even somebody like Sully or Yeager to pull it off. You know more than me, but I would think most airline pilots could land a glider from cruising altitude. Sully’s situation was caused because his altitude was very low after takeoff, but airliners are capable enough gliders and should be able to fly 80+ miles with no power from cruising altitude. That’s usually enough to get to an airport, though they might roll off the runway if they’re forced to land at an airport not designed for airline traffic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=3)