# Off-duty pilot tries to shut down the engines mid-flight **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [October 23, 2023, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966 "2023-10-23T17:50:28Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 5:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/101 "2023-10-25T05:26:31Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > A jumpseater is considered part of the crew. I have a question about jumpseats. What is it, and why are they built into the cockpit? I assume it is a foldable seat that closes up flat against the wall. But why in the cockpit? The flight attendants use jump seats during the landing, and it’s logical that they fold up to save space.But that’s a seat which is required to be in use on every flight, even if it is only for a few minutes. Why is there a jumpseat next to the pilot? ---
**Author:** ![DesertDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/desertdog/32/11503_2.png) [@DesertDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DesertDog)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/102 "2023-10-25T05:48:27Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > The pilot sounds pretty cool and collected: Commercial pilots in general remain cool and collected when everyone else (me included) would have gone fetal. I’ve heard a number of cockpit voice recordings something like, “[Bad thing] has happened, trying [Fix-A]… No joy, trying [Fix-B]… No joy there either, trying [Fix-C]… Well, shit.” Just before the tape ends. You keep working the problem until you run out of options or time. See _Sully_ or _Flight_ for dramatizations of this. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 8:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/103 "2023-10-25T08:56:10Z")
> [@Euphonious\_Polemic](#): > > I wonder what it sounded like in the passenger cabin when both engines suddenly shut off. Quiet. At least for a moment. > [@wolfpup](#): > > “Career”? He’s flushed the rest of his life down the drain. If and when he’s ever released, he’ll re-enter the world as a decrepit old convicted murderer. Convicted _attempted_ murderer - he didn’t actually kill anyone. > [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > Everyone keeps saying “mushrooms” but I am betting on something more potent (more than LSD but I am guessing). Mushrooms can be pretty potent. We also don’t know how much of them he took. > [@wolfpup](#): > > Another public relations triumph for Alaska Airlines for hiring him, regularly screening him, and eventually promoting him! If up until this time he was behaving with no sign of an impending breakdown then Alaska Airlines did nothing wrong, other than lack an ability to see the future. ---
**Author:** ![Smapti](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smapti/32/17938_2.png) [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 9:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/104 "2023-10-25T09:27:29Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Quiet. From what I’ve read, the engines never lost power and the co-pilot was able to reset the fire control system. > [@Broomstick](#): > > Convicted _attempted_ murderer - he didn’t actually kill anyone. “Is there a Nobel Prize for Attempted Chemistry?” ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/105 "2023-10-25T11:25:49Z")
> [@chappachula](#): > > I have a question about jumpseats. What is it, and why are they built into the cockpit? > I assume it is a foldable seat that closes up flat against the wall. But why in the cockpit? > > The flight attendants use jump seats during the landing, and it’s logical that they fold up to save space.But that’s a seat which is required to be in use on every flight, even if it is only for a few minutes. Why is there a jumpseat next to the pilot? Physically the jumpseat may be an uncomfortable folding arrangement akin to what the FAs have, or they may be full-sized fully-equipped seats just like the pilots have. The former is common on RJs & narrowbody aircraft, while the latter are common on widebodies. Some airplanes have one of each. Why are they there? Back in the day that’s where the navigator or flight engineer sat. Or at least in that space, albeit on a proper seat. When a widebody airplane departs on a long haul flight, they’ll have 3 or 4 pilots on board who will work the flight in shifts. They all start out in the cockpit, and they need a place to sit while doing so. Once in cruise the unneeded pilot(s) go sleep someplace until it’s time to change shifts. After shift change the pilot(s) who had been flying go sleep while the other(s) fly. They all reconvene in the cockpit for the arrival and landing. And all need a place to sit. The narrow-body Boeing 757 has and the soon to be released Airbus A321XLR will have the range to need 3 pilots on many (most?) flights. That third person will occupy one of the two jumpseats for departure and arrival. On smaller / shorter-ranged planes with only a 2-pilot crew they are there as a place for instructors and QC pilots to sit while training or observing a working crew doing their job. They are also there so an FAA safety inspector can do the same QC function. Those same training and QC functions also occur on the widebodies. When they are not in use for their intended purpose, they’re physically available as a place to carry any extra rider(s). Back in heyday of ships, the Captain had discretion to bring along family or really anyone. That sort of continued in aviation; the jumpseat was the Captain’s to use as he (always he back then) saw fit. Over the decades that has slowly become more bureaucratic & security-minded, but the idea that it’s still a place where the Captain may extend the courtesy of a ride to a fellow professional exists. Subject to lots of FAA- and company-enforced limits and bureaucracy. Operationally, the wannabe rider makes contact with the airline reservation system and gate agent, secures their permission to ask the Captain for a ride, and as a matter of reciprocal professional courtesy that permission is almost always granted. Assuming proper documentation, no higher priority use, etc., etc. ---
**Author:** ![kayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kayaker/32/441_2.png) [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 11:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/106 "2023-10-25T11:43:45Z")
> [@Whack-a-Mole](#): > > I had a misspent youth but I cannot ever think of doing what he did while on some drug. I tried mushrooms and LSD as a youth (not misspent, just having fun) and continue to use mind altering substances to this day. I mostly just giggle and listen to music. > [@JKellyMap](#): > > Years in prison and then…Amtrak. As a conductor? ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 11:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/107 "2023-10-25T11:49:57Z")
Great story for me to read just after I booked my flight to DFW for the Christmas holidays. LOL ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/108 "2023-10-25T11:56:53Z")
Dallas is not….Astoria, Oregon to Portland, Oregon to San Francisco. Just sayin’. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/109 "2023-10-25T12:13:38Z")
True, but I would be just as dead in either case, so it is a moot point. 😆 ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/110 "2023-10-25T12:18:43Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > Looks like he’s angling for some sort of insanity plea. Insanity and intoxication are two different things. At the time of the incident, he wasn’t insane - he was drugged up, a voluntary choice on his part. I suspect he’s looking for a more conventional plea deal, i.e. he’ll offer to plead guilty in exchange for a lighter sentence, just like most folks who face a near-certain conviction if it goes to trial. ---
**Author:** ![JKellyMap](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jkellymap/32/15880_2.png) [@JKellyMap](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JKellyMap)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/111 "2023-10-25T12:18:54Z")
(I was referring to the shroom culture of Oregon and the Bay Area…sorry if I wasn’t clear. But maybe you’re flying to Dallas from some shroomier place!) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/112 "2023-10-25T12:28:44Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Another public relations triumph for Alaska Airlines for hiring him, regularly screening him, and eventually promoting him! > > If up until this time he was behaving with no sign of an impending breakdown then Alaska Airlines did nothing wrong, other than lack an ability to see the future. I was describing the PR disaster that ASA has to deal with in terms of public perception. Not gonna blame them unless there’s good reason to do so. ---
**Author:** ![pullin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c57346/32.png) [@pullin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pullin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/113 "2023-10-25T12:29:35Z")
> [@Llama\_Llogophile](#): > > I’m just speculating here, but I wonder if this is going to bring up the conundrum for pilots who want to get help for whatever affliction, but are incentivized not to by how we attain and keep our medical certifications. A pilot seeking treatment for any sort of depression, no matter how mild, is opening a can of worms with regard to their medical. If anyone is interested, Admiral\_Cloudberg’s thoughtful and well-researched article on this subject is available on Medium. [The Madness in our Methods: The crash of Germanwings flight 9525 and our broken aeromedical system.](https://admiralcloudberg.medium.com/the-madness-in-our-methods-the-crash-of-germanwings-flight-9525-and-our-broken-aeromedical-system-5b95abd4fe6d) In light of this event, one quote stands out (bolding mine): _“First Officer Andreas Lubitz hid his psychotic depression from his employer until he snapped, but instead of enacting broader exceptions to medical confidentiality, the real solution might be something completely different: to loosen, rather than tighten, the rules surrounding mental fitness to fly. As contradictory as it sounds, a deeper look at the system of aeromedical certification reveals **a vindictive process that is so fundamentally broken that it destroys the careers of healthy pilots, engenders a culture of deceit, and — if not radically reformed — risks guaranteeing that the next Andreas Lubitz will also escape detection**.”_ A long article, but well worth the read. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/114 "2023-10-25T12:33:56Z")
Ah, you have just provided a good strategy! I’ll simply fly all “shroomed up” and then plunge to my death while in a blissful euphoria! 🕶 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 12:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/115 "2023-10-25T12:39:53Z")
> [@Kropotkin](#): > > This thread has me checking “Amtrak schedules” and “freighter passenger trips to Europe” with more than casual interest. Pity White Star line isn’t operating any more. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/116 "2023-10-25T13:02:02Z")
FWIW, I’m about to board a flight for my first post-retirement vacation. Feels kinda weird to be on the outside looking in. No concerns about crewmember insanity. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/117 "2023-10-25T13:19:33Z")
That’s what they WANT you to think! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 9:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/118 "2023-10-25T21:47:09Z")
what percentage of your flights had somebody in a jumpseat? 10% ? … 50 … 90%??? I am surprised as your post seems to suggest that those jumpseat passengers are a fairly “immediate / last moment” thing, iow not spoken for or agreed upon days or weeks ahead of time, but kindalike hitching a ride at the gate … ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 10:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/119 "2023-10-25T22:44:16Z")
It depends heavily on the route. If you’re flying between one airline base and another, jumpseats are occupied 50% of the time during slow season and 95+% of the time during summer & the Holidays. Lots of pilots live in one base and commute to another to go to work. When the back is full, the overflow comes up front to us. Conversely, between Bumfuck and a base, or for an international flight, it’s more like 5-10%. And yes, the normal-case jumpseaters are walk-up from the POV of the gate agents and the working crew. That jumpseater may have been planning this ride on e.g. Tuesday afternoon for a week now ever since they knew they needed to get to work by Tuesday evening. But the rest of us only find out when it happens. For things like training events or FAA QC ride-alongs, there’s a much more involved process involving HQ planning and approval. The details of which have never been my problem. Either way, I first find out about them when they stick their head in the cockpit & say “Hi.” We can certainly review the planned passenger list prior to boarding or even the day prior. And get an indication we might have somebody. But if there’s space in the back, the courteous commuter would rather be back there than up with us. So often it comes down to the last minute, where they’re seated with us, the gate agent sticks their head in, says "We ended up with 1 (or 2 or 5) empty seats in back. At which point the jumpseater asks to go back there instead, which the Captain always approves. All else equal most of us we’d rather not have them with us for a normal flight; it’s kind of a third wheel even if they work for our same company flying our same airplane type. Especially on the smaller airplanes where it’s already physically crowded in our little broom closet. On the big jets it’s more spacious up there and they’re not invading your personal space. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [October 25, 2023, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966/120 "2023-10-25T22:56:05Z")
To be fair to this poor fellow, it can be _awfully_ difficult to get to sleep when you’re tripping balls. I hope he gets the help he needs. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-duty-pilot-tries-to-shut-down-the-engines-mid-flight/991966.md?page=7)