# Off key singers on (mainstream) records? -\> Santana Caravanserai **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Tags:** music\ **Created:** [August 12, 2024, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612 "2024-08-12T12:46:59Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/1 "2024-08-12T12:46:59Z")
I just listen to Santanas Caravanserai record … and the singer is the main reason I do not listen more often to that otherwise good work: (cued to the right spot (0:43) [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/3WvktVJRalQ/maxresdefault.jpg "Just in Time to See the Sun") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3WvktVJRalQ&t=43) I still am godsmacked how a performance like that could end up on an mayor record of a then worldfamous artist like Carlos Santana? got any other examples? ---
**Author:** ![Machine\_Elf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/82dd89/32.png) [@Machine\_Elf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Machine_Elf)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 1:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/2 "2024-08-12T13:38:45Z")
Alanis Morisette on her “Unplugged” LP sings slightly sharp most of the time, particularly on the highest notes. ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 2:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/3 "2024-08-12T14:22:55Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > _I just listen to Santanas Caravanserai record … and the singer is the main reason I do not listen more often to that otherwise good work._ The vocals on that track are attributed to Carlos himself and Gregg Rolie. Whoever sang lead isn’t mentioned, but I recall that Carlos was not a good singer. Why they didn’t turn the vocal over to a better singer is a good question. ---
**Author:** ![Al128](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/al128/32/16541_2.png) [@Al128](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Al128)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/4 "2024-08-12T14:53:05Z")
I got the feeling that this was the master himself, as Gregg is normally quite a competent/good singer (as can be heard on earlier Santana albums). ---
**Author:** ![burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/burpo_the_wonder_mutt/32/365_2.png) [@burpo\_the\_wonder\_mutt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/burpo_the_wonder_mutt)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/5 "2024-08-12T15:02:42Z")
I’m dragging it out again: From the late ‘80s; **Because I Love You (The Postman Song)** by Stevie B. It would not surprise me — the vox are _that_ bad — if he sang his “melody” _a cappella_ into his Yamaha 4-track cassette recorder then added the accompaniment. It drifts out of pitch, the timing is constantly off, it SUCKS! ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/6 "2024-08-12T15:46:48Z")
I’ve heard slightly-off-pitch vocals (and they bother me SO much… I couldn’t turn off that Santana song fast enough), and, along with mistakes\* in recording, I always think “WHY couldn’t they take a minute or two and fix that?” Or in this case do a retake (maybe with Greg on vocals this time)? . \*Heard that Mamas & Papas song yesterday where Denny comes in 4 beats early, and it’s an earworm now: “I saw her aga… I saw her again last night…” ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 4:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/7 "2024-08-12T16:51:16Z")
> [@digs](#): > > _Heard that Mamas & Papas song yesterday where Denny comes in 4 beats early, and it’s an earworm now: “I saw her aga… I saw her again last night…”_ I must have played that songs dozens of times on the radio, and was aware of the mistake, but it always sounds like he only sings “I saw her,” but not “aga…” Either way, how difficult would it have been to sing it again? Speaking of them, there’s another recording curiosity on one of their most famous hits, “California Dreamin.” Barry McGuire recorded the song originally, but for some reason it was then handed over to the M&Ps. Instead of re-recording it from scratch, they erased his vocals, but kept the original background vocals, and had the M&Ps sing the lead. There are a couple of places in that recording where you can still hear Barry McGuire, his vocals not being completely erased. Again, why not just re-record the whole thing? (Cost of background singers or union studio time, perhaps?) Apparently, McGuire was pretty pissed off about it, having what he thought would be a hit single pulled out from under him. I don’t agree. His version is awful compared to theirs, which is Pop perfection. ---
**Author:** ![GESancMan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gesancman/32/2923_2.png) [@GESancMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GESancMan)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/8 "2024-08-12T18:04:13Z")
My wife likes to try new (to her) music on Spotify while she’s working. A while back, something came on I hadn’t heard before. It sounded like typical '90s grunge (which I was never a fan of). The vocals were horrendous. The guy was totally off-key, and couldn’t sing to save his life. After a couple of songs, I said “Jesus, who the hell is this?” “Dinosaur Junior.” I’d never heard of them, but apparently they were big in the '90s. Thankfully, my wife did not revisit them much after that. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/9 "2024-08-12T18:12:41Z")
This just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I will 100% agree that J Mascis isn’t a classically great singer, but I love his singing. That is true for me for many of the “horrible” singers like Geddy Lee, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Billy Corgan, Springsteen, Lemmy, and many more. I can’t tell you how many of those sing off key, but I know some of them do. My college years were all about Dino Jr and a bunch of other bands. ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/10 "2024-08-12T18:17:07Z")
> [@Al128](#): > > got any other examples? Culture Club were consistently sharp, making otherwise good music IMO occasionally unlistenable. All things being equal, though, I think pop music was better pre-Autotune. I’ll forgive a lot of off pitches if I can hear people’s natural voices. ---
**Author:** ![Exapno\_Mapcase](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/exapno_mapcase/32/1051_2.png) [@Exapno\_Mapcase](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Exapno_Mapcase)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 6:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/11 "2024-08-12T18:25:32Z")
> [@digs](#): > > I’ve heard slightly-off-pitch vocals (and they bother me SO much… I couldn’t turn off that Santana song fast enough I can’t hear mistakes of pitch or key, but I can tell that by turning the song off quickly at that point you lose a great guitar riff that is basically everything. If the vocals are Santana’s, let him do anything he wants and wait for the guitar. > [@XOldiesJock](#): > > Either way, how difficult would it have been to sing it again? The story I’ve read is that they thought it was so cool they left the mistake in regardless. Or irregardless. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.winston_oboogie/32/2945_2.png) [@Dr.Winston\_OBoogie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Winston_OBoogie)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/12 "2024-08-12T18:57:55Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > That is true for me for many of the “horrible” singers like Geddy Lee, Neil Young, Bob Dylan, Tom Waits, Billy Corgan, Springsteen, Lemmy, and many more. There’s a difference between bad vocal tenor and being off key. Geddy Lee screeched, but was on key. Neil Young and Billy Corgan whined, but were on key. You get the picture. You want off-key by a recognized artist? Lou Reed couldn’t carry a tune in a bucket. His best songs were ones that were mostly talking. “Walk On the Wild Side” - when he sings, he’s off key. It’s great song in spite of Lou’s singing. His voice fits with some of the tunes - Heroin, with the Velvet Underground is a fantastic representation of shooting heroin; part of that is his voice. His writing was fantastic. Musicionship on the albums was fantastic. Lou’s singing? Let’s say pretty much any of his songs would be better sung by someone else. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/13 "2024-08-12T19:00:03Z")
I get all of that, and Lou Reed was one I could’ve easily added to my list! 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![XOldiesJock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/x/ec9cab/32.png) [@XOldiesJock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XOldiesJock)\ **Post date:** [August 12, 2024, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/14 "2024-08-12T23:04:28Z")
> [@Exapno\_Mapcase](#): > > _The story I’ve read is that they thought it was so cool they left the mistake in regardless._ Re: “I Saw Her Again” mistake… I probably heard that record hundreds of times when it was popular and for years thereafter and this “mistake” just sounded like it was supposed to be there. I never knew it was Denny Doherty jumping the gun until it was told to me some 10 years later. They probably liked it too and so it stayed. Sometimes a musical mistake is for the better. If it wasn’t there I would probably mentally fill it in. ---
**Author:** ![outlierrn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/outlierrn/32/3005_2.png) [@outlierrn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/outlierrn)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/15 "2024-08-13T02:54:57Z")
There’s Gin Wigmore. I’m not sure if she counts as off key. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/16 "2024-08-13T03:06:34Z")
> [@wguy123](#): > > This just goes to show that beauty is in the eye of the beholder. I will 100% agree that J Mascis isn’t a classically great singer, but I love his singing Yep, same here. He’s an awesome vocalist in my book. Love his sound, as wonky and thin as it is. Works great for his music. And he rocks that guitar. I wouldn’t call them grunge at all. Just noisy college rock. ---
**Author:** ![Tamerlane](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tamerlane/32/7602_2.png) [@Tamerlane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tamerlane)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 3:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/17 "2024-08-13T03:10:57Z")
> [@GESancMan](#): > > It sounded like typical '90s grunge (which I was never a fan of). The vocals were horrendous. The guy was totally off-key, and couldn’t sing to save his life. After a couple of songs, I said “Jesus, who the hell is this?” > > “Dinosaur Junior.” > > I’d never heard of them, but apparently they were big in the '90s. They appropriately titled their greatest hits collection Ear-Bleeding Country, though that applies as much or more to J. Mascis’ screechy guitar work. He’s a bit of an off-beat alternative noise-guitar hero (he has had a signature [Jazzmaster](https://www.fender.com/en-US/squier-electric-guitars/jazzmaster/j-mascis-jazzmaster/0371060541.html) and [Telecaster](https://www.fender.com/en-US/electric-guitars/telecaster/j-mascis-telecaster/0140262326.html)). I’d much rather listen to Sonic Youth to get my noisy guitar fix, but I’m okay with a very occasional foray into Dinosaur Jr. Very occasional. Always loved [this album cover](https://i.ytimg.com/vi/6bMFg9KzkAs/maxresdefault.jpg) though. ---
**Author:** ![wguy123](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wguy123/32/3161_2.png) [@wguy123](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wguy123)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 3:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/18 "2024-08-13T03:52:31Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > And he rocks that guitar. Here’s my clean tone which is ran through an OD. Then I run it through the first Big Muff. Then I run it through a Super Fuzz or other distortion. Love it! [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/aLjLBNmuO9c/maxresdefault.jpg "How to Stack Fuzz and Drive Pedals with J Mascis of Dinosaur Jr. | Reverb Pedal Tricks") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLjLBNmuO9c) ---
**Author:** ![Eclipse\_Chaser](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@Eclipse\_Chaser](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eclipse_Chaser)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/19 "2024-08-13T19:09:47Z")
Watching the Olympics closing ceremony the other day, the person who sang the American national anthem (never heard of the person before, I’m British) seemed very off key to me on some notes. ---
**Author:** ![Loach](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/loach/32/350_2.png) [@Loach](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loach)\ **Post date:** [August 13, 2024, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612/20 "2024-08-13T20:47:32Z")
That was H.E.R. Don’t ask me about the name. From what little I know of her, that is H.E.R. style. She tends to do a lot of scooping when she sings. Decent guitar player though. > **[H.E.R. sings USA anthem to transition the Games to LA 2028](https://www.nbcnews.com/news/amp-video/mmvo216950341794)** > > H.E.R. performs the U.S. national anthem at the 2024 Paris Olympics closing ceremony to transition the Games to LA 2028. Watch the 2024 Paris Olympics on NBC and streaming on Peacock, July 26 - Aug 11. ETA I can’t comment on her relative fame around the world but she has won an Oscar and a few Grammys. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/off-key-singers-on-mainstream-records-santana-caravanserai/1005612.md?page=2)