# Office of Homeland Security... **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 21, 2001, 3:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951 "2001-09-21T03:08:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 19\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 8:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/21 "2001-09-21T08:25:03Z")
I think “home defense” would be right. My question is exactly what its relationship will be with the existing agencies. Is it the boss, or just another competitor? I’d say the job should include control over CIA, NSA, and border patrol. The militry still has thier own intelligence outfits for their needs, and they can borrow NSA satellites as needed. Except for at the borders, the department should have no operational end. It finds the threats, and refers them to either military or the Justice dept (FBI) as the case warrants. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 8:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/22 "2001-09-21T08:26:30Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JamesCarroll \* > Anyways, that’s my 1cent. The other one went into the Red Cross jar at my bank. \*\* Cheap bastard. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 8:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/23 "2001-09-21T08:53:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by JamesCarroll \* > \*\*I agree that the name definitely needs a little reworking. Maybe its the word “homeland”, but it sounded like something Hitler might have had. My first thought was replacing it with “Internal”, but then suddenly visions of Stalin dances through my head. \*\* Sort of reminds me of “Commision for State Security”, or KGB. > [@](#): > > \*\* > > I also think that those who see it as some kind of “Office of Appropriate Thought” need to take another toke of that stuff they wanna legalize. We’ve got enough government agencies coming at you right now as it is. > \*\* I didn’t say it WAS that. Just that it sounds really quite menacing, and seems like it could be a stepping stone in that direction. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 11:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/24 "2001-09-21T11:33:29Z")
> [@](#): > > If I’m understanding correctly, it will be coordinating the domestic national security efforts of agencies such as the FBI, CIA, NSA and various law enforcement. Perhaps even the military, if need be. I sort of get the feeling that Bush has lost a sense of confidence in many of these agenceys. Between spies, lost evidence and missed opportunities, Bush may want a new organization to straighten out the old ones. BTW… Throw in the ATF. ---
**Author:** ![Smitty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e274bd/32.png) [@Smitty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smitty)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 12:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/25 "2001-09-21T12:51:28Z")
In the long term, this new office will probably be a very bad thing. Every government agency expands its mission beyond it original charter in order to gain a bigger budget and more authority. This new agency may do some short term good, but what about 10 years from now, when terrorism is no longer front and center on everyone’s mind? Will this office say, “Well, our work is done. Time to pack it in and go home.”? No. Once terrorism is on the run, this office will be constantly looking for new “threats” to national security in order to justify its existence. I fear we just took one more big step toward a police state. ---
**Author:** ![Milossarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/3ec8ea/32.png) [@Milossarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Milossarian)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 12:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/26 "2001-09-21T12:58:55Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\*BTW… > > Throw in the ATF. \*\* I was including them in “various law enforcement.” Throw in some aspects of FEMA, too. I would imagine the chain still goes like this: if a sheriff’s department or city or state police agency discover some activity that they suspect is a part of a larger possible threat against our national security, they will still report it to the FBI. The FBI, as it continues to do all the things it has always done, will simply provide information about what they know and what they are doing to this new office. People in the Homeland Security office will, in turn, make sure agencies such as the CIA, NSA and military have the information, and determine where it fits in to any information they have, or any efforts they have under way. ---
**Author:** ![Freedom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Freedom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freedom)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 1:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/27 "2001-09-21T13:09:15Z")
I think that is a good guess. I would add that they will possibly be used to look for (and hopefully plug) leaks and moles inside the other agencies. I’m looking at them as a sort of QC division as well as a clearinghouse for information. ---
**Author:** ![JustPlainBryan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/57b2e6/32.png) [@JustPlainBryan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JustPlainBryan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/28 "2001-09-21T15:23:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Milossarian \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*\*BTW… > > > > Throw in the ATF. > > \*\* > I was including them in “various law enforcement.” > > Throw in some aspects of FEMA, too. > > I would imagine the chain still goes like this: if a sheriff’s department or city or state police agency discover some activity that they suspect is a part of a larger possible threat against our national security, they will still report it to the FBI. > > The FBI, as it continues to do all the things it has always done, will simply provide information about what they know and what they are doing to this new office. > > People in the Homeland Security office will, in turn, make sure agencies such as the CIA, NSA and military have the information, and determine where it fits in to any information they have, or any efforts they have under way. \*\* Might as well include the Center for Disease Control (CDC) in this too. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/29 "2001-09-21T16:32:05Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Smitty_: > > In the long term, this new office will probably be a very bad thing. Okay, but what about right now? > [@](#): > > Every government agency expands its mission beyond it original charter in order to gain a bigger budget and more authority. I don’t think you’ll get any arguments that government agencies can become wasteful, but that’s not a reason to oppose their creation. If it is, then we’d better get busy and start eliminating every governemtn agency older than ten years. > [@](#): > > This new agency may do some short term good… Great. That’s what we need in the short term. > [@](#): > > …but what about 10 years from now, when terrorism is no longer front and center on everyone’s mind? What about ten years from now, when AIDS is no longer on everyone’s mind? What will happen to the White House Office of National AIDS Policy? Let’s just hopep that the day comes when we can say good riddance to offices that are no longer needed. > [@](#): > > Will this office say, “Well, our work is done. Time to pack it in and go home.”? No. Once terrorism is on the run, this office will be constantly looking for new “threats” to national security in order to justify its existence. I don’t think so. Congress has argued for the elimination of Cabinet level positions (and their related organizations) before. If, ten years from now, the Office of Homeland Security becomes obsolete, it can be disolved. I think Giuliani would have been a better (and nicely symbolic) choice for this. ---
**Author:** ![manhattan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/manhattan/32/7_2.png) [@manhattan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/manhattan)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/30 "2001-09-21T16:48:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Attrayant \* > \*\* Okay, but what about right now? > \*\* Heh. I just read his first press release. He wants federal aid for the steel industry. There’s your homeland defense. And to think I worried that the pick wasn’t bipartisan enough. ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/31 "2001-09-21T18:57:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\*I may be selectively hearing things, but I do not get the impression we are going to lose more freedoms. If you are talking about getting your bags searched whilst going into a large city…no, I don’t think that is the case at all. This looks more like a subliminal presence that is forming, not a physical police state. I do not believe that will happen. That is not the USA. nough said. \*\* Well, since you can already have your vehicle and bags searched when going from state-to-state (see: California state border checkpoints), I don’t see how that’s such a jump in logic. IIRC the border stops were originally set up to check for produce during the fruit fly scare. They’re still there and are being used to check for everything from vehicle saftey to illegal immigrants to drugs and weapons. My fear from the beginning has been that this attack will be used to enhance the already extreme powers we give law enforcement and government agencies in the name of some nebulous “security”. We need to fight these enemies of our country, no question. We do not, and should not, expand the government’s authority as an excuse to do this. The government has all the authority and power it needs to fight Bin Laden, et al. Security is a myth. I’m afraid freedom is rapidly becoming one as well. Benjamin Franklin: “They that can give up an essential liberty to obtain a little temporary safety, deserve neither liberty nor safety.” Gerald Ford’s: “If the government is big enough to give you everything you want, it is big enough to take away everything you have.” ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/32 "2001-09-21T21:44:46Z")
Attrayant wrote: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > _Originally posted by Smitty_: > > Every government agency expands its mission beyond it original charter in order to gain a bigger budget and more authority. > > I don’t think you’ll get any arguments that government agencies can become wasteful, but that’s not a reason to oppose their creation. If it is, then we’d better get busy and start eliminating every governemtn agency older than ten years. You know … that may not be such a bad idea. Let’s start with the ATF and the DEA. I don’t think **anybody** likes having them around. ---
**Author:** ![FallenAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FallenAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FallenAngel)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 2001, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/33 "2001-09-21T22:24:42Z")
**tracer** if you ever run for office, you have my vote. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/34 "2001-09-22T01:29:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > \*\*Attrayant wrote: > > You know … that may not be such a bad idea. > > Let’s start with the ATF and the DEA. I don’t think **anybody** likes having them around. \*\* Especially the fire insurance companies. ---
**Author:** ![Kalashnikov](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/2bfe46/32.png) [@Kalashnikov](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kalashnikov)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/35 "2001-09-22T03:13:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > \*\ ***tracer** if you ever run for office, you have my vote. \*\* I’ll help campaign for you. ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/36 "2001-09-22T03:38:49Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by FallenAngel \* > Well, since you can already have your vehicle and bags searched when going from state-to-state (see: California state border checkpoints), I don’t see how that’s such a jump in logic. IIRC the border stops were originally set up to check for produce during the fruit fly scare. They’re still there and are being used to check for everything from vehicle saftey to illegal immigrants to drugs and weapons. _Sigh._ Cite? - Rick ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/37 "2001-09-22T22:31:34Z")
Attrayant > [@](#): > > What about ten years from now, when AIDS is no longer on everyone’s mind? What will happen to the White House Office of National AIDS Policy? Let’s just hopep that the day comes when we can say good riddance to offices that are no longer needed. Apples and oranges. If/when AIDS is cured, the Office of National AIDS Policy clearly becomes irrelevant (if it isn’t already–I have no idea what this office actually does). The Office of Defense of the Realm has no such built-in expiration date. If/when ObL and organization are destroyed, Ridge or whoever will find someone or something else to focus on, with the requisite financial and personnel needs. When was the last time any government agency was killed, let alone a Cabinet-level one? manhattan > [@](#): > > Heh. I just read his first press release. He wants federal aid for the steel industry. There’s your homeland defense. Where does one find these press releases? Does it explain how handing a bucket of cash to the steel mills enhances national security? ---
**Author:** ![medstar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f07891/32.png) [@medstar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/medstar)\ **Post date:** [September 22, 2001, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/38 "2001-09-22T22:42:15Z")
My take on the situation is that the Office of Homeland Security will require that all police, fire and other rescue organizations will be required to cooperate with each other and share information without fighting over jurisdiction. I read in the Washington Post that the FBI and the CIA were so busy infighting with each other, that they dropped the ball on the primary goal. I don’t see anything sinister about this scenario. JMHO. ---
**Author:** ![ihrkelings](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/977dab/32.png) [@ihrkelings](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ihrkelings)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2001, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951/39 "2001-09-26T01:26:56Z")
I’ll work, if I can get paid to read discussion forums all day and glean tidbits… It would be worth it for the insights and the laughs. (don’t know how to make the smilies yet…) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/office-of-homeland-security/82951.md?page=1)