# Official 2011 NFL Football Thread - Preseason Edition **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Created:** [July 21, 2011, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920 "2011-07-21T23:58:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/321 "2011-08-10T00:25:47Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > I was kinda cheating here, because the official Eagles depth chart won’t be the final one and has some strange listings in the second team… but the current Eagles’ second team would absolutely win 4 games. Without a doubt. > > QB - Vince Young > RB - Ronnie Brown > WR - Jason Avant, Riley Cooper > TE - Donald Lee > > OT - Winston Justice, King Dunlap > OG - Evan Mathis, Mike McGlynn > C- Jason Kelce > > DE - Jason Babin, Darryl Tapp > DT - Trevor Laws, Cullen Jenkins > LB - Keenan Clayton, Greg Lloyd, Akeem Jordan > CB - Dominique Rodgers-Cromartie, Joselio Hanson > S - Jarrad Page, Jaiquawn Jarrett The Panthers didn’t win 4 games last year. Let’s look at their 2010 starters: > [@](#): > > QB-Matt Moore > RB-DeAngelo Williams > FB-Tony Fiammetta > WR1-Steve Smith > WR2-Dwayne Jarrett > TE-Dante Rosario > LT-Jordan Gross > LG-Travelle Wharton > C-Ryan Kalil > RG-Duke Robinson > RT-Jeff Otah > > LE-Charles Johnson > UT-Tank Tyler > NT-Louis Leonard > RE-Everette Brown > WLB-Jon Beason > MLB-Dan Connor > SLB-James Anderson > CB1-Chris Gamble > CB2-Richard Marshall > FS-Sherrod Martin > SS-Charles Godfrey Except for Babin (maybe), Young, Rogers-Cromartie and Avant, there’s nobody on the Eagles B team I’d take over last season’s Panthers starters. There’s no way that team wins 4 games, except possibly in the NFC West. [QUOTE=Hamlet] Mike Sims Walker can really catch the ball … and sucks at blocking. He’s not physical at all and will be a detriment on running plays. [/QUOTE] The weird thing about MSW is that he’s physically imposing (6’2", 214) but plays like a little guy. He doesn’t beat people to jump balls, he just runs great routes. It’s especially weird because he played corner and safety at times in college and was a superb tackler. And as a wideout in college, Brandon Marshall was the #2 to _him_. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/322 "2011-08-10T04:17:18Z")
McCoy is looking somewhat less noodle armed in camp, which is reassuring. He tore his shoulder in the national championship game and that affected his draft stock and throwing power last year. I never watched him in college so I don’t know what he’s capable of, but if his arm strength doesn’t get any better than it was last year he’s fighting an uphill battle. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/323 "2011-08-10T07:24:03Z")
Take it for what it’s worth, which is almost nothing, but the Bengals are at the bottom of the [ESPN preseason power rankings](http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2011/week/0). So I’m certainly not being bold and unique when I predict they’ll suck. ---
**Author:** ![Jules\_Andre](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jules_andre/32/9334_2.png) [@Jules\_Andre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jules_Andre)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 7:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/324 "2011-08-10T07:33:14Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > The Panthers didn’t win 4 games last year. Let’s look at their 2010 starters: > > Except for Babin (maybe), Young, Rogers-Cromartie and Avant, there’s nobody on the Eagles B team I’d take over last season’s Panthers starters. There’s no way that team wins 4 games, except possibly in the NFC West. Interesting that you brought them up, actually. First, it’s important to note how silly of a conversation this is, fundamentally. We can’t ever prove it, and it basically comes down to “look how awesome this depth is!” vs. “nuh uh!” And yes, I cheated with that depth chart, a couple of those Eagles will be starters. But after looking at it, I’ll take almost all fo the Eagles over the Panthers starters, and that’s not homerism, either. For instance, Young is obviously better than Matt Moore. Ronnie Brown is comparable to Deangelo Williams, and brown was certainly better last year (better DVOA, DYAR, Suc Rate, and a better receiver). You could make a case the Eagles would be behind in WR, but only if you go by name recognition. Jason Avant was significantly better than Steve Smith last year. Dwayne Jarrett didn’t even really play, did he? Either way, their true #2 probably beat Riley Cooper in production. Cooper is tall and skilled, but hasn’t gotten much chance yet. Dante Rosario was just a warm body, Donald Lee, when given a chance to play, is a better receiver, and probably a better blocker too. So already, the Eagles are winning in every single skill position except #2 WR, if you go by the numbers. And they have the trump card, their QB is better. That means an awful lot in this comparison. It’s difficult to judge the O-lines, because we can get info for what the Panthers did last season (and btw, it was pretty awful, universally) but not so much for the Eagles backups. But for one simplified example, the Panthers were the worst in the league in Adjusted Line Yards to the Left side. If you take Winston Justice from the Eagles right side, he was better in both categories (so I’m comfortable saying Justice is comparable to Gross, in run blocking anyway). Not a great example, but an idea. I really think you’re just skipping over it to think every Panthers starter is better than every Eagles backup along the line. The Eagles’ group would be pretty awful, but the Panthers’ group WAS awful, possible the worst in the NFL overall. I think it would be a comparable matchup. Frankly, you’re out of your god damned mind if you think that Carolina D-Line even comes close to the production of those Eagles I mentioned. The Eagles are better at every single spot. Every one. The only spot that’s even close is Charles Johnson vs. Jason Babin, and at worst that’s a tie. The linebackers probably don’t compare, and I won’t bother to match them up. It would be impossible anyway, since the Eagles’ guys didn’t get much time last year when they did play. That’s a weakness of the Eagles’s second unit. In the secondary, Gamble is good, but DRC is definitely better. Incomparably better if 2010 was his off year, as opposed to assuming that 2008 and 2009 were both aberrations somehow. Joselio Hanson is FO’s best nickel corner in the entire NFL, so while he didn’t play outside, he’s miles and miles ahead of Richard Fucking Marshall. Did you know that both Gamble AND Marshall were in the bottom ten in the entire NFL in CB success rate? (Hanson, btw, top ten) I’d take the Eagles guys in a heartbeat. It’s almost comical how much better the Eagles’ #3 and #4 corners are compared to the Panthers’. So yeah, in conclusion, the Eagles are better at most spots on their second team than the starters for the Panthers. So whatever the Panthers won last season, I’d expect the Eagles to win slightly more. And rightfully so. So maybe 3-4 wins is a better guess. 6 was too high, I can’t think of too many 6 win teams the Eagles second team would beat. Maybe Washington, if they’re 6-10 this year again. There are a few 4-12 teams that I think this Eagles second unit could beat though. It’s just reactionary nonsense to dismiss it. ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/325 "2011-08-10T12:22:45Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > Denario Alexander needs a knee transplant. Was he running poorly? Being a Mizzou alum he is the only Ram that I root for. I keep meaning on dropping by Rams park to see one of their open practices. Its cool that your girls got to get some autographs. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/326 "2011-08-10T12:25:07Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > Ronnie Brown is comparable to Deangelo Williams, and brown was certainly better last year (better DVOA, DYAR, Suc Rate, and a better receiver). You lost me here. > [@Jules Andre](#): > > You could make a case the Eagles would be behind in WR, but only if you go by name recognition. Says the guy who is trumpeting Vince Young and Dominique Rodgers Cromartie. > [@Jules Andre](#): > > Jason Avant was significantly better than Steve Smith last year. If you asked 32 GMs in the NFL, who they would rather have, Jason Avant or Steve Smith, I would be willing to bet that 33 of them would say Steve Smith. Howie Roseman voted for Steve Smith twice. > [@Jules Andre](#): > > Dante Rosario was just a warm body, Donald Lee, when given a chance to play, is a better receiver, and probably a better blocker too. Donald Lee had 73 yards receiving. ALL OF LAST YEAR. And he played in 11 games. Trust me when I tell you, he’s done. He’s over 30, is an OK blocker and gives you nothing in the passing game. I think you were absolutely right when when you said: "We can’t ever prove it, and it basically comes down to “look how awesome this depth is!” vs. “nuh uh!” But you were absolutely wrong when you said: “that’s not homerism, either.” ---
**Author:** ![garygnu](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/garygnu/32/2924_2.png) [@garygnu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/garygnu)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/327 "2011-08-10T14:54:47Z")
> [@Hamlet](#): > > … > 2) I love watching Steven Jackson run. > … I’m contractually obligated to hate the Rams, and even **I** like watching Jackson run\*. I think the only person in the world who doesn’t is Mike Rumph. I’ve felt so sorry for Jackson for years because he’s been better than the whole rest of his team combined, but I still hope he doesn’t make the playoffs (well, maybe as a wild card behind the 49ers). \*: I suppose an exception can be made for Jackson due to his status as an Oregon State alum. ---
**Author:** ![Omniscient](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omniscient/32/3290_2.png) [@Omniscient](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omniscient)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/328 "2011-08-10T15:31:40Z")
> [@SenorBeef](#): > > Take it for what it’s worth, which is almost nothing, but the Bengals are at the bottom of the [ESPN preseason power rankings](http://espn.go.com/nfl/powerrankings/_/year/2011/week/0). So I’m certainly not being bold and unique when I predict they’ll suck. The Bengals will struggle, but if I were making a power ranking I think I’d have them no worse that 27th. I’m not convinced that they’ll be worse than the Browns and I definitely think they’ll be better than the Broncos, Redskins and Panthers. > [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > Interesting that you brought them up, actually. First, it’s important to note how silly of a conversation this is, fundamentally. We can’t ever prove it, and it basically comes down to “look how awesome this depth is!” vs. “nuh uh!” And yes, I cheated with that depth chart, a couple of those Eagles will be starters. But after looking at it, I’ll take almost all fo the Eagles over the Panthers starters, and that’s not homerism, either. > > For instance, Young is obviously better than Matt Moore. Ronnie Brown is comparable to Deangelo Williams, and brown was certainly better last year (better DVOA, DYAR, Suc Rate, and a better receiver). You could make a case the Eagles would be behind in WR, but only if you go by name recognition. Jason Avant was significantly better than Steve Smith last year. Dwayne Jarrett didn’t even really play, did he? Either way, their true #2 probably beat Riley Cooper in production. Cooper is tall and skilled, but hasn’t gotten much chance yet. Dante Rosario was just a warm body, Donald Lee, when given a chance to play, is a better receiver, and probably a better blocker too. So already, the Eagles are winning in every single skill position except #2 WR, if you go by the numbers. And they have the trump card, their QB is better. That means an awful lot in this comparison. > > It’s difficult to judge the O-lines, because we can get info for what the Panthers did last season (and btw, it was pretty awful, universally) but not so much for the Eagles backups. But for one simplified example, the Panthers were the worst in the league in Adjusted Line Yards to the Left side. If you take Winston Justice from the Eagles right side, he was better in both categories (so I’m comfortable saying Justice is comparable to Gross, in run blocking anyway). Not a great example, but an idea. I really think you’re just skipping over it to think every Panthers starter is better than every Eagles backup along the line. The Eagles’ group would be pretty awful, but the Panthers’ group WAS awful, possible the worst in the NFL overall. I think it would be a comparable matchup. > > Frankly, you’re out of your god damned mind if you think that Carolina D-Line even comes close to the production of those Eagles I mentioned. The Eagles are better at every single spot. Every one. The only spot that’s even close is Charles Johnson vs. Jason Babin, and at worst that’s a tie. > > The linebackers probably don’t compare, and I won’t bother to match them up. It would be impossible anyway, since the Eagles’ guys didn’t get much time last year when they did play. That’s a weakness of the Eagles’s second unit. > > In the secondary, Gamble is good, but DRC is definitely better. Incomparably better if 2010 was his off year, as opposed to assuming that 2008 and 2009 were both aberrations somehow. Joselio Hanson is FO’s best nickel corner in the entire NFL, so while he didn’t play outside, he’s miles and miles ahead of Richard Fucking Marshall. Did you know that both Gamble AND Marshall were in the bottom ten in the entire NFL in CB success rate? (Hanson, btw, top ten) I’d take the Eagles guys in a heartbeat. It’s almost comical how much better the Eagles’ #3 and #4 corners are compared to the Panthers’. > > So yeah, in conclusion, the Eagles are better at most spots on their second team than the starters for the Panthers. So whatever the Panthers won last season, I’d expect the Eagles to win slightly more. And rightfully so. So maybe 3-4 wins is a better guess. 6 was too high, I can’t think of too many 6 win teams the Eagles second team would beat. Maybe Washington, if they’re 6-10 this year again. There are a few 4-12 teams that I think this Eagles second unit could beat though. It’s just reactionary nonsense to dismiss it. This is patently absurd, every word of it. You’re treading perilously close to **Dio** territory here. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/329 "2011-08-10T16:33:28Z")
DeSean Jackson is not a top 10 wideout in this league. Sorry. Against decent defenses he is average at best. I am not even sure he is top 20… Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, Sidney Rice, Dwayne Bowe, Roddy White, Vincent Jackson, Santonio Holmes,Mike Wallace, Mile Austin, Jeremy Maclin, Calvin Johnson, Hakeem Nicks,Brandon Marshall are all guys I’d rather have on my team than DeSean Jackson. ---
**Author:** ![Cumbrian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce7236/32.png) [@Cumbrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cumbrian)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/330 "2011-08-10T16:39:19Z")
Advance stats suggest Desean Jackson isn’t even a Top 20 receiver - because he drops the ball too much. [http://www.grantland.com/story/\_/id/6847210/desean-jackson-eagles](http://www.grantland.com/story/_/id/6847210/desean-jackson-eagles) ---
**Author:** ![RetroVertigo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b38774/32.png) [@RetroVertigo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RetroVertigo)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/331 "2011-08-10T16:40:22Z")
> [@Omniscient](#): > > This is patently absurd, every word of it. You’re treading perilously close to **Dio** territory here. If we can’t be blindly optimistic about our teams 2nd stringers, then I ask what can we be optimistic about. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/332 "2011-08-10T16:45:35Z")
> [@](#): > > Andre Johnson, Larry Fitzgerald, Greg Jennings, Reggie Wayne, Sidney Rice, Dwayne Bowe, Roddy White, Vincent Jackson, Santonio Holmes,Mike Wallace, Mile Austin, Jeremy Maclin, Calvin Johnson, Hakeem Nicks,Brandon Marshall are all guys I’d rather have on my team than DeSean Jackson. Pop quiz: how many of those guys had over 3,000 receiving yards after their first three years in the league? Fitzgerald and Calvin Johnson. That’s it. Austin and Rice don’t even have 3,000 yards after _five_ and four years, respectively. Santonio Holmes has 1 1,000 yard season _ever_; Maclin doesn’t have any. Mike Wallace is admittedly on pace to do it. Jackson does. If you had a team, it would suck. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/333 "2011-08-10T17:13:05Z")
> [@Jules\_Andre](#): > > Ronnie Brown is comparable to Deangelo Williams, No, he is not. There is a reason one got a multiyear multimillion dollar contract, and the other sat on the market for a week before taking a one-year deal. > [@](#): > > Jason Avant was significantly better than Steve Smith last year. Dude, this is just retarded. > [@](#): > > In the secondary, Gamble is good, but DRC is definitely better. Incomparably better if 2010 was his off year, as opposed to assuming that 2008 and 2009 were both aberrations somehow. You see what you’re doing here? When you want to trash Steve Smith, you look only at last year. When it comes to Babin and DRC, you go back and look at the past. This is not an honest tactic. > [@Omniscient](#): > > This is patently absurd, every word of it. You’re treading perilously close to **Dio** territory here. Exactly true. Just stop. ---
**Author:** ![Hamlet](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hamlet/32/2818_2.png) [@Hamlet](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hamlet)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/334 "2011-08-10T18:05:47Z")
> [@RetroVertigo](#): > > Was he running poorly? Being a Mizzou alum he is the only Ram that I root for. He was in a brace on his left leg, and didn’t seem to be running well. He also had problems cutting well during one of their positional sessions. He didn’t make much of an impression during any of the 7 on 7 or full scrimmage stuff I saw either. [Quote=R.V.] I keep meaning on dropping by Rams park to see one of their open practices. Its cool that your girls got to get some autographs. [/QUOTE] They were a tad intimidated by the 6’ 3", 300 lb. behemoths, but the guys were very nice and it was a well run system, so they liked it. And I enjoyed watching a real practice. I’d recommend it to anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/335 "2011-08-10T18:12:34Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Pop quiz: how many of those guys had over 3,000 receiving yards after their first three years in the league? > Jackson does. If you had a team, it would suck. And Andre Johnson caught 2800 yards in his first 3 seasons with the “awesome” David Carr under center. Not the easiest way to accumulate yardage, as opposed to Philadelphia. I’d still rather have the year 4 Johnson than the year 4 Jackson, though that’s hardly a slight on Jackson. He’s certainly a good WR, though I’d put him in the 10-15 range, rather than the top 10. Assuming he stays healthy, he’s got nowhere to go but up over the next 5 years. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/336 "2011-08-10T18:24:29Z")
I would totally rather have Johnson in Year 4 too, but Santonio Holmes? Vincent Jackson? Please. ---
**Author:** ![kidchameleon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/898d66/32.png) [@kidchameleon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kidchameleon)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/337 "2011-08-10T18:31:56Z")
Saying that Jackson is a better WR than Miles Austin because Austin only played special teams his first few years is a pretty weak argument. ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/338 "2011-08-10T18:44:59Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I would totally rather have Johnson in Year 4 too, but Santonio Holmes? Vincent Jackson? Please. I would take Vincent Jackson over DeSean Jackson in an instant, I would proabbaly rank Santonio Holmes a D Jackson the same. I do give DJ a little extra for his return capabilities. But Vincent versus Desean is not even close. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/339 "2011-08-10T18:56:41Z")
> [@Gangster\_Octopus](#): > > I would take Vincent Jackson over DeSean Jackson in an instant, I would proabbaly rank Santonio Holmes a D Jackson the same. I do give DJ a little extra for his return capabilities. But Vincent versus Desean is not even close. What do you base this on? Vincent Jackson trails DeSean Jackson in every single statistical metric. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2011, 7:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920/340 "2011-08-10T19:02:17Z")
> [@kidchameleon](#): > > Saying that Jackson is a better WR than Miles Austin because Austin only played special teams his first few years is a pretty weak argument. So what would you do? Pretend Austin wasn’t in the NFL for more than half his career? Austin played special teams because he didn’t win a starting job. Anyway, he didn’t only play special teams in years 3, 4 and 5. If we pretend that 2008 was his rookie year, he’s still handily outperformed by Jackson. Jesus Christ. I don’t even _like_ Jackson, but the number of people who think he sucks because they don’t like him is astonishing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/official-2011-nfl-football-thread-preseason-edition/589920.md?page=18)