# Offsetting Excess Wind and Solar Power Generation **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [June 8, 2014, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310 "2014-06-08T04:09:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![j\_sum1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/8baadc/32.png) [@j\_sum1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/j_sum1)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 8:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/21 "2014-06-09T20:07:38Z")
I like this idea too. But it just may not turn out to be economic. Firstly, a lot of high electricity users just do not have the option of turning on and off on a whim. An aluminium smelter or electric arc furnace is going to have problems if it is powered down at the wrong time. Secondly, most processes are not going to be profitable if they are not running to capacity. Having outlaid a huge amount of capital for an industrial plant you are going to want a pretty serious discount on your electricity costs to offset the loss in production due to periodic shutdowns. For most processes, electricity use is only a fraction of total expenses. For industries where electricity use is really high you run into problem#1. It looks like for the meantime pumping water uphill where geography allows it is the best option. Then there is always this [hot liquid metal battery](http://www.ted.com/talks/donald_sadoway_the_missing_link_to_renewable_energy) concept, but I am not holding my breath (interesting as it is.) ---
**Author:** ![ElvisL1ves](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/5daacb/32.png) [@ElvisL1ves](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ElvisL1ves)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/22 "2014-06-09T21:03:34Z")
> [@Tastes\_of\_Chocolate](#): > > Instead of trying to store the energy, another option would be to find high energy usage manufacturing that is also open to shifting when they use their power. That’s been a common practice for industrial customers with the size to negotiate their own rates, and the flexibility to implement it, for some time. > [@davidm](#): > > What about using flywheels for energy storage? I know something about that industry. 😉 Their main advantage is ultrafast response to fluctuations, making them a good choice for grid stabilization problems. They’re much faster than batteries, and don’t have the same chemical reaction entropy problems, either. For handling longer-term variations, as in day to night, the numbers still point to putting more generation capacity online during the day, though. > [@](#): > > This company claims to supply flywheel energy storage systems. > [http://beaconpower.com/](http://beaconpower.com/) Only to themselves at present. Beacon is an owner/operator of two 200MW plants, one in New York and one in Pennsylvania, at present, as well as the designer/manufacturer/integrator. Their initial target market, uninterruptible power supplies for the telcom market, did not appear as expected, driving the company into reorganization from which it has now emerged. ---
**Author:** ![Isilder](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/cc9497/32.png) [@Isilder](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Isilder)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2014, 11:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/23 "2014-06-09T23:52:00Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This article seems to think that Germany has the problem solved on the household level. > [Solar Energy Storage System Market In Germany Approaching A Boom - CleanTechnica](http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/09/solar-energy-storage-system-market-germany-approaching-boom/) > I don’t know anything about the accuracy or reliability of [cleantechnica.com](http://cleantechnica.com). They are not understanding the risk of diminishing returns. Economics and philosophers call it the “law of diminishing returns”… or “too much of anything is a bad thing”. The Canada solar _opinion piece_ is just propaganda… I don’t think that he let his opinion driven propaganda get pollute by a single fact. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/24 "2014-06-10T02:17:32Z")
> [@](#): > > Quoth **SteveMB** : > > This is absurd on its face. The worst-case scenario (the wind and solar generators fail to produce any power) is equivalent to never building the wind and solar generators in the first place. They can fail to avert the need for new gas plants, but not cause such a need. Not absurd. Most of the existing generating capacity is coal, and coal plants needs some time to start up and shut down. A coal plant can’t practically respond quickly enough to the wind dying down. So if you’re going to build a significant number of windmills, if you want to take advantage of them, you’re going to also need to build something that can respond quickly enough, such as natural gas plants. ---
**Author:** ![gaffa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e68b1a/32.png) [@gaffa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gaffa)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/25 "2014-06-10T02:49:50Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Not absurd. Most of the existing generating capacity is coal, and coal plants needs some time to start up and shut down. A coal plant can’t practically respond quickly enough to the wind dying down. So if you’re going to build a significant number of windmills, if you want to take advantage of them, you’re going to also need to build something that can respond quickly enough, such as natural gas plants. That is true of nearly every energy source. Commonweath Edison had jet engines at their nuclear plants as very fast start generators to handle peak requirements. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/26 "2014-06-10T02:56:52Z")
Yes, to some degree, but demand is more predictable than wind or clouds. You mostly know what the demand curve is going to look like on any given day, and if it takes you two hours to fire up a plant, you can start the process two hours before peak time. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/27 "2014-06-10T03:38:13Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > That is true of nearly every energy source. Commonweath Edison had jet engines at their nuclear plants as very fast start generators to handle peak requirements. Nuclear plants do have long ramp-up times, but the jet engines associated with nuclear plants are usually emergency power systems intended to deploy in the event of a nuclear shutdown, and not AFAIK for routine operation. Ordinary peak power requirements are usually handled through conventional grid switching technology and peaker plants, as with most other generating systems. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/28 "2014-06-10T07:04:24Z")
> [@Steve\_MB](#): > > > [@jiHymas](#): > > > > Well, sure. I’m certainly not very happy about the situation here in Ontario, where [electricity bills have skyrocketed due to solar power[/urll]. > > It’s difficult to take the linked article seriously with obvious howlers like: > > > [@](#): > > > > At the same time, wind and solar generation – being unstable – needed back-up generation, which forced the construction of new gas plants. > > This is absurd on its face. The worst-case scenario (the wind and solar generators fail to produce any power) is equivalent to never building the wind and solar generators in the first place. They can fail to _avert_ the need for new gas plants, but not _cause_ such a need. I recognize it’s not the best article ever written on the Ontario power problem; to be honest, I decided at the last minute I needed a link to explain why I’m so interested in the problem, since the Teeming Millions might not be familiar with Ontario; and just picked one of the top few from Google. I suspect that the author may be drawing from [url=[http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports\_en/en11/303en11.pdf](http://www.auditor.on.ca/en/reports_en/en11/303en11.pdf)]The Ontario Auditor-General’s report section titled Electricity Sector— Renewable Energy Initiatives]([Ontario’s Power Trip: Irrational energy planning has tripled power rates under the Liberals’ direction | Financial Post](http://business.financialpost.com/2014/06/02/ontarios-power-trip-irrational-energy-planning-tripling-power-rates-under-the-liberals-direction/)): > [@Ontario Auditor General](#): > > The IESO confirmed that consumers have to pay twice for intermittent renewable energy—once for the cost of constructing renewable energy generators and again for the cost of constructing backup generation facilities, which usually have to keep running at all times to be able to quickly ramp up in cases of sudden declines in sunlight levels or in wind speed. The IESO confirmed that such backups add to ongoing operational costs, although no cost analysis has been done. However, the rest of the Auditor General’s report illustrates the point I was attempting to illustrate - that Ontario electricity bills have skyrocketed due to the introduction of solar (and other renewable) power. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/29 "2014-06-10T09:05:58Z")
> [@davidm](#): > > This article seems to think that Germany has the problem solved on the household level. > [Solar Energy Storage System Market In Germany Approaching A Boom - CleanTechnica](http://cleantechnica.com/2014/06/09/solar-energy-storage-system-market-germany-approaching-boom/) Could be. Apparently [Japan is implementing battery technology](http://cleantechnica.com/2013/12/06/japan-emerging-energy-storage-hot-spot/) as well: > [@Cllean Technica](#): > > Japan is emerging as a hot-spot for energy storage projects, as utilities and technology companies look to battery-based solutions in response to the surge in solar PV installations. > > Two new battery storage projects have been announced in the past week, with Toshiba to install a 20MWh/40MW lithium-ion battery project in Tohuku, and the island of Okinawa announcing a 2MW battery storage project on Tuesday. > > Japan is expected to be the largest market for solar PV installations in 2013, with around 9GW to be installed following the introduction of feed in tariffs last year in response to the Fukushima nuclear disaster. But [according to the US DoE](http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/12/f5/Grid%20Energy%20Storage%20December%202013.pdf) battery storage is only good for the short term: > [@US DoE](#): > > There are several different electrochemical battery technologies that are currently available for commercial applications. These technologies have been successfully deployed in both distributed and centralized applications in various sizes. However, they have not yet realized widespread deployment due to challenges in energy density, power performance, lifetime, charging capabilities, safety, and system cost. The more robust technologies include lithium-ion (Li-ion), sodium sulfur (NaS), and lead acid batteries, including lead carbon batteries. Li-ion batteries tend to be best suited for relatively short discharges (under two hours) and do not handle deep-discharges well, so these batteries are more suited to power-management operations such as frequency regulation or as an uninterruptible power source (UPS). NaS batteries are somewhat behind Li-ion battery technology in terms of energy and power, but they can maintain longer discharges (four to eight hours) and may be more suitable for load leveling and price arbitrage operations. Lead acid batteries, a mature technology with good battery life, are relatively cheap; however, the low energy density and short cycle time are challenges to large-scale deployment. Also, there are other novel chemistries being developed such as sodium-ion. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/30 "2014-06-10T09:09:22Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Another solution is smart metering. Some forms of consumption are time-flexible, and so can be scheduled to run whenever the power is cheapest. The power company could vary their rates minute-by-minute, lowering prices whenever the windmills or solar panels are producing and raising them when they’re not, and communicate that information to consumer devices over the Internet. The device would then be programmed to use power when it’s cheap and to idle when it’s expensive. I don’t know if that would fly. People - in general - hate being directly exposed to commodity prices. There’s always lots of complaints about gasoline prices. I think that, politically speaking, it would be better for the utilities to act as buffers, even if that makes it more expensive for consumers in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/31 "2014-06-10T09:18:35Z")
I was sent a link to a US DoE study titled [Grid Energy Storage](http://energy.gov/sites/prod/files/2013/12/f5/Grid%20Energy%20Storage%20December%202013.pdf) which has a wealth of information: > [@US DoE](#): > > At present, the U.S. has about 24.6GW (approx. 2.3% of total electric production capacity) of grid storage, 95% of which is pumped storage hydro. Europe and Japan have notably higher fractions of grid storage. Pursuit of a clean energy future is motivating significantly increased storage development efforts in Europe and Asia, as well as the U.S. > > … > > In the past few years, the urgency of energy storage requirements has become a greater, more pressing issue that is expected to continue growing over the next decade: California enacted a law in October 2010 requiring the California Public Utilities Commission (CPUC) to establish appropriate 2015 and 2020 energy storage procurement targets for California load serving entities, if cost effective and commercially viable by October 2013 (AB 2514). In February 2013, the CPUC determined that Southern California Edison must procure 50 MW of energy storage capacity by 2021 in Los Angeles area. Additionally, in June 2013, the CPUC proposed storage procurement targets and mechanisms totaling 1,325 MW of storage. Other States are looking to the example that California is setting, and Congress has introduced two bills that establish incentives for storage deployment. > > … > > New capabilities of pumped hydro, through the use of variable speed pumping, is opening up the potential for the provision of additional services that may be used to assist in the integration of variable generation sources. Projects may be practically sized up to 4,000 MW and operate at about 76%–85% efficiency, depending on design. Pumped hydro plants have long lives, on the order of 50-60 years. As a general rule, a reservoir one kilometer in diameter, 25 meters deep, and having an average head of 200 meters would hold enough water to generate 10,000 MWh. As an aside, I must tell you Americans (most of you are Americans, I think) how much I admire your institutional expertise and reporting. The quality of the information the US government generates (with things like Congressional hearings and staff reports) and publishes (such as the linked report) are phenomenal, particularly when compared to the garbage we are grudgingly served in Canada. Most of my experience is with financial market reports - from the SEC and from their comment letters - but I see it all the time. Although many times, when all this top-notch expertise gets put through the Congressional mill and turned into legislation, you don’t seem to get much better results out of it than the rest of us! But perhaps that’s another thread! ---
**Author:** ![bob\_2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bob_2/32/3341_2.png) [@bob\_2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bob_2)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 9:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/32 "2014-06-10T09:31:31Z")
> [@jiHymas](#): > > I don’t know if that would fly. People - in general - hate being directly exposed to commodity prices. There’s always lots of complaints about gasoline prices. I think that, politically speaking, it would be better for the utilities to act as buffers, even if that makes it more expensive for consumers in the long run. Smart meters are being trialled in the UK. It’s not so much about varying the price, as about smoothing demand. If people can be persuaded to run their washing machines and tumble dryers at night, that would have a significant effect. Industry already has the mechanism in place - it remains to be seen whether the ordinary consumer will accept the idea. As a matter of interest, I used just over 4000 kwh of electricity over the last 12 months. How does that compare with others here? ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/33 "2014-06-10T14:48:26Z")
You wouldn’t need to make it very hard for the user. I’m imagining an electric car that comes with a charger device, which just asks the user what time they need the car to be ready in the morning, and then does all of the commodity and cost-benefit calculations itself and uses power accordingly. People would warm to something like that, if they knew it could save them money. There are also crude forms of smart metering already implemented in some places (I think I heard Australia) that are somewhat successful: The house wiring includes an extra line, and power on that line is always cheaper than the main line, with the trade-off that the power company can turn that line on and off when they choose. People hook up, for instance, a water heater to that circuit, and let it run when the cheap line is turned on. ---
**Author:** ![njtt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ecd19e/32.png) [@njtt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/njtt)\ **Post date:** [June 10, 2014, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/34 "2014-06-10T18:03:34Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > Smart meters are being trialled in the UK. It’s not so much about varying the price, as about smoothing demand. If people can be persuaded to run their washing machines and tumble dryers at night, that would have a significant effect. Industry already has the mechanism in place - it remains to be seen whether the ordinary consumer will accept the idea. It is not a matter of the consumer accepting it. I personally, would be very happy to run my washing machine at night, but it is a condition of my rental agreement that I do NOT do so, the reason being that it would disturb the neighbours’ sleep. Like a large proportion of British people, I live in a terraced house (and, in my particular case, an upstairs flat in one). A large proportion of those who do not live in flats and/or terraces, live in semis. As so often, this “money saving” measure only works for rich people. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/35 "2014-06-11T01:31:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > You wouldn’t need to make it very hard for the user. I’m imagining an electric car that comes with a charger device, which just asks the user what time they need the car to be ready in the morning, and then does all of the commodity and cost-benefit calculations itself and uses power accordingly. People would warm to something like that, if they knew it could save them money. Electric cars are a whole nuther problem. Transformers in use today aren’t designed to run 7/24: they use the night-time to cool down. There will be massive infrastructure costs to pay if electric cars ever become popular. > [@njtt](#): > > > [@bob++](#): > > > > Smart meters are being trialled in the UK. It’s not so much about varying the price, as about smoothing demand. If people can be persuaded to run their washing machines and tumble dryers at night, that would have a significant effect. Industry already has the mechanism in place - it remains to be seen whether the ordinary consumer will accept the idea. > > It is not a matter of the consumer accepting it. I personally, would be very happy to run my washing machine at night, but it is a condition of my rental agreement that I do NOT do so, the reason being that it would disturb the neighbours’ sleep. Like a large proportion of British people, I live in a terraced house (and, in my particular case, an upstairs flat in one). A large proportion of those who do not live in flats and/or terraces, live in semis. As so often, this “money saving” measure only works for rich people. You wouldn’t be taking too many vacations with your electricity savings anyway. An [Ontario Energy Board study](http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/oeb/_Documents/EB-2004-0205/Navigant_report_TOU_Rates_in_Ontario_Part_1_201312.pdf) of the impacts of the billion-dollar smart meter installation programme found that on-peak summer demand fell 3.3% and annual savings per customer due to load shifting came to a whopping $12.00. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/36 "2014-06-11T01:43:25Z")
> [@jiHymas](#): > > You wouldn’t be taking too many vacations with your electricity savings anyway. An [Ontario Energy Board study](http://www.ontarioenergyboard.ca/oeb/_Documents/EB-2004-0205/Navigant_report_TOU_Rates_in_Ontario_Part_1_201312.pdf) of the impacts of the billion-dollar smart meter installation programme found that on-peak summer demand fell 3.3% and annual savings per customer due to load shifting came to a whopping $12.00. Maybe because of the outrageous way that rates were mismanaged. It makes perfect sense in principle to charge less for off-peak power, and that’s the way the wholesale market has always worked. It makes a whole lot less sense to deal with TOU billing by basically just jacking up the peak rates. There are good things and bad things about the Ontario power system. The good is the large amount of it that is clean – nuclear and hydro, and a small but growing wind-power component. The bad is the overall structural and fiscal mismanagement. ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/37 "2014-06-11T05:47:08Z")
> [@wolfpup](#): > > It makes perfect sense in principle to charge less for off-peak power, and that’s the way the wholesale market has always worked. In principle, yes. But if I look at the figures for a Conventional CC gas plant, as given in Table 1 of the [US Energy Information Administration’s Updated Capital Cost Estimates for Utility Scale Electricity Generating Plants](http://www.eia.gov/forecasts/capitalcost/pdf/updated_capcost.pdf) (gotta love the US government information!), I see: Capital Cost: $917/kW Fixed O&M Cost: $13.17/kW-yr Variable O&M Cost: $3.60/MWh I then note that the Ontario report on smart meters states: > [@Navigant Report on Smart Meters](#): > > TOU rates have led to an approximately 179 MW of average demand reduction during the summer On-Peak period So I can then generate approximate numbers. Let’s say we don’t install smart meters at a cost of $1-billion. Let’s say we build a 200MW gas plant (preferably in downtown Oakville) instead, and run it full blast for five hours a day, every day. Capital Cost = 200 [MW] x 1000 [MW/kw] x 1,000 [$/kW] = 200-million Fixed O&M = 200 [MW] x 1000 [MW/kw] x 13.17 [/kW-yr] = 3-million per year Variable O&M = 200 [MW] x 5 [hours/day] x 365 [days/year] x 4 [/MWh] = $1,5-million per year So basically, we can either spend $1-billion on smart meters (ignoring maintenance) or spend $200-million + $5-million annually on a gas plant and get the same effect. I recognize I’m a bit out of my depth here, so any corrections will be cheerfully accepted. In other words, while Time of Use billing may make sense in principle, it doesn’t necessarily make a whole lot of sense in practice, since it costs so much to collect. It’s like a city taking sidewalks out of the general budget and charging a user fee per step. Perhaps somewhere there is a thorough (and more authoritative!) cost-benefit analysis for smart meters? ---
**Author:** ![jiHymas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/439d5e/32.png) [@jiHymas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jiHymas)\ **Post date:** [June 11, 2014, 6:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310/38 "2014-06-11T06:06:40Z")
> [@jiHymas](#): > > Perhaps somewhere there is a thorough (and more authoritative!) cost-benefit analysis for smart meters? I see that the [Ernst & Young Cost Benefit Analysis done for smart meters in Germany](http://www.bmwi.de/English/Redaktion/Pdf/cost-benefit-analysis-for-the-comprehensive-use-of-smart-metering-systems,property=pdf,bereich=bmwi2012,sprache=en,rwb=true.pdf) states > [@Ernst & Young](#): > > Customers with low energy consumption will not be able to offset the total charge (€29 + €22 = €51 p.a.) by using smart metering systems regardless of any energy saving efforts or load shifting. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offsetting-excess-wind-and-solar-power-generation/690310.md?page=1)