# Offshoring - the snake that is eating itself. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 3, 2010, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912 "2010-10-03T14:51:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/241 "2010-10-12T20:12:57Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > Didn’t you just say that jobs replace themsleves? > > Where was the job replacement? For teh Rust Belt decline? Well, quite a lot of it was in IT. The decline of steel and heavy manufacturing was, to a large extent, made up for by a shift to creating computer hardware and software. The jobs lost in Rochester were offset by jobs gained in places like Redmond and Palo Alto. > [@](#): > > Yeah and if we can balance the RATE of job loss more closely with the RATE of job regeneration, we avoid a LOT of unecessary suffering. Or do you think that doesn’t matter? Of course it matters. I just don’t see how trade barriers will help. > [@](#): > > Are you under the impression that all the improevements in our standard of living are the result of trade? No, but you asked “well, where are the major economic power from 200 years ago?” so I thought I’d answer your question. > [@](#): > > At the end of the cold war after decades of brutal communist rule, who do you think was better off, the average Russian in 1810 or the average Russian in 1980? I haven’t done a detailed study of it. I’d guess the average Russian in 1980, since so many of them in 1810 were slaves. > [@](#): > > Lets pick a more dramatic example. Who do you think is better off, the average North Korean today or the average North Korean today? I guess we’re now entering Zen Economics. > [@](#): > > I now see where the problem is. You think economics is a science. Physics is a science. Chemistry is a science. Economics is not a science. To be perfectly blunt, if you believe that, then you do not know what science is. Science is the examination of the nature of reality through the use of experimentation and objective evidence. That’s what economists do. The fact that it’s hard to do doesn’t mean it isn’t science. The fact that we don’t yet have all the answers doesn’t mean it isn’t science - actually, if anything, it’s evidence that it IS science. There’s incredibly exciting scientific work going on in economics these days - it’s never been a better time, in fact - and you’re saying it’s not a science. Your position is precisely equivalent to someone watching Newton in his lab saying “This isn’t a science.” (Of course, they wouldn’t have used the word “science,” but you get my drift.) “Divinity is a science, not this crap,” they’d have said. After all, at the time people knew very little about physics. Most of what was “known” was nonsense. > [@](#): > > When economists say taht free trade is always good, it is not a scientific axiom What economists say this? Can you show me a peer-reviewed article entitled “Free Trade Is Always Good”? For that matter, can you even defend your claim that people in this thread are “defending China’s trade practices”? Nobody is defending China playing unfair with its currency. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/242 "2010-10-12T20:17:29Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > No. Plenty of places tried to replicate Silicon Valley. In the 1970s and 80s there was Silicon Glen, Silicon Bayou, and Silicon Alley. And lots of auto manufacturers have tried and failed to bust into the Big Three’s backyard. But Toyota and Honda succeeded. Someone was going to do the same in IT, sooner or later. The question is, do you want the USA to have a piece of the action or don’t you? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/243 "2010-10-12T20:29:29Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > **Damuri Ajashi** : Here’s the thing. Let’s say we put a 40% tariff on Chinese goods. What is the net effect of that tariff? How many jobs will be created in the US and how much income will that generate relative to the price increase of all the other goods that either continue to be manufacture in China or some other, low-wage country? If you can’t answer that question, then you shouldn’t be advocating a policy that is contrary to generally accepted economic principles. > > The net effect of that tariff is that China lets its currency float and we export jobs at a slower rate. A rate that is perhaps slow enough to permit our economy to generate jobs faster than we lose them. We stop “exporting” jobs to China at a slower rate. Can you demonstrate that we won’t “export” jobs to other countries at a faster rate to make up for that? > [@](#): > > You are sorely mistaken if you think that free trade NO MATTER WHAT TEH OTHER GUYS DOES is generally accepted econmic principle. I’m not saying that, but it is true that there are few excpetions. > [@](#): > > Free trade principles are based on all sorts of assumptions and a floating currency is one of those assumptions. No, it isn’t. Economic theory tells us that free trade, including floating currencies, is best for all parties. It does not tell us that one party pegging its currency to another party is injuring that party. China, for whatever reason, currently favors a stable currency over a free floating one. That isn’t necessarily a net negative for the US. > [@](#): > > Do you think we should sit back and wait for China to float their currency when they are good and ready without reacting to the peg at all? Yes, I’ve said that many times in this thread. > [@](#): > > If we adopt a POLICY of imposing tariffs to offset currency pegs, the corporation would know that the tariff might disappear but only because the currency peg is gone and the cost of doing business in China would be higher. > > So what aboput all those factories that were built based ona currency peg that can go away? The smart money says it isn’t going away. They’ve been right for some time now, and there is no evidence they will be wrong in the future. ---
**Author:** ![ralph124c](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/8797f3/32.png) [@ralph124c](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ralph124c)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/244 "2010-10-12T20:38:21Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > This goes back, though, to why we’re essentially talking about the same thing. If Cisco’s moving engineering jobs to India, it’s because they perceive that to be the economically logical thing to do. Now, who knows, maybe they’re wrong, and they will fail spectacularly and other companies won’t follow suit. But if they’re right, then there’s not really a material difference between Cisco moving jobs to Bangalore and an Indian startup creating the jobs themselves. If Cisco DIDN’T build a campus in Bangalore, the likely result is simply that “Bangalorsco” would be created to build low-cost switches and network equipment and would start eating away at Cisco’s market share. > > > > While this might take a few years longer than the existing American company building a campus in India, the end result would not only be the same, but would arguably be worse for the USA, since now you’d have an entirely Indian company raking in the bux, as opposed to an American concern raking it in. When sales of switches were made in Canada or the EU or Dubai or wherever, all the profits would go to Bangalore, and none at all to San Jose. > > No. Plenty of places tried to replicate Silicon Valley. In the 1970s and 80s there was Silicon Glen, Silicon Bayou, and Silicon Alley. They discovered it was not so easy. You need a critical mass of trained engineers to allow the kind of job hopping and cross fertilization that goes on here all the time. Now, there has been low level programming work going on there for a long time. But what US companies have done is build the infrastructure that India needs to grab the industry. The guy who starts the hot new company is not going to be the guy just out of IIT, but the guy who was an exec here who has access to a big pool of engineers trained by US companies. Then your scenario will happen - but it wouldn’t (or wouldn’t so quickly) if American companies hadn’t supplied the rope, as Lenin said. Interesting that you bring up the semiconductor industry-the fact is, it has left “Silicon Valley”-almost entirely! At first, people made chips in SV, and there was a huge market there for engineers, process machinery, chemicals, high purity gases, etc. Then the chips were sent to Asia for packaging and testing-so all the industries that supported that dies off. then the fabs (where the chips were made) went to Asia-now all that is left is design and testing-and that is moving to Asia too! By consigning the chip business to Asia, we are guaranteeing that no more engineering jobs will be generated here. Politicians are too stupid to understand this..they think that some “new” industry will come in to take up the slack-but those new industries will open up in Asia. But, we can all work at McDonalds-or become divorce lawyers. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/245 "2010-10-12T20:45:31Z")
So, working at McDonald’s or being a Divorce Lawyer are the only choices, ehe? I guess I’ll have to give up my job as a network engineer, then… [QUOTE=ralph124c] By consigning the chip business to Asia, we are guaranteeing that no more engineering jobs will be generated here. Politicians are too stupid to understand this..they think that some “new” industry will come in to take up the slack-but those new industries will open up in Asia. [/QUOTE] Yeah, because all the ‘new’ industries have already been invented and stuff! There won’t be any ‘new’ products or services ever again…it’s a zero sum game I tells you, yes indeed precious!!..so we must hold onto every one because there won’t be anymore. Fiiissshhhheeessss…give me FFFFIIIIIISSSSHHHHHHHEEESSSSS! Juicy and sweet! -XT ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/246 "2010-10-12T20:47:51Z")
> [@ralph124c](#): > > Interesting that you bring up the semiconductor industry-the fact is, it has left “Silicon Valley”-almost entirely! Semiconductors are still the United States’s second largest export type, after commercial aircraft. They’re being made somewhere in the USA. Heaven knows where you get the idea the USA doesn’t make semiconductors anymore. It’s totally false. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 8:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/247 "2010-10-12T20:51:06Z")
Last time I drove through, Silicon Valley wasn’t empty either, if we are going to be all technical about it. 😛 -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/248 "2010-10-12T21:02:58Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@ralph124c](#): > > > > Interesting that you bring up the semiconductor industry-the fact is, it has left “Silicon Valley”-almost entirely! > > Semiconductors are still the United States’s second largest export type, after commercial aircraft. They’re being made somewhere in the USA. > > Heaven knows where you get the idea the USA doesn’t make semiconductors anymore. It’s totally false. Intel, alone, has large wafer fabs in Oregon, New Mexico and Arizona. Packaging and testing is mostly done overseas, which is true of most US semiconductor companies. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/249 "2010-10-12T21:16:14Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > I don’t see a way to prevent it, and I’m not convinced that you want to. If John Chambers wants to move to Bangalore, he’s got his reasons, I guess. I’m not convinced that independently that’s a good thing for the USA, but I am equally unconvinced that all those Americans left behind are going to just sit on their asses, and that there won’t be a reorganization that will result in new jobs being created in California. > > and that would be fine considering that india doesn’t engage in currency manipulation. > > > [@](#): > > > > You can’t stop Indians from doing R&D. The question is, do you want American corporations to get a piece of that action? From a pure national interest perspective, isn’t it better for American companies to invest in India and own that operation, rather than waiting for India to do it? Imagine if American investors had created Toyota, Honda and Datsun/Nissan back in the 50s. > > American corporations? Which ones are those? I don’t think corporations really have nationalities any more. Correct, corporations have no allegiance to any country. The go where ever profits are possible, including communist china or socialist Europe, or supplying dictators pre 1990 like Saddam with weapons and other goods. Now, for the common citizen, they have to abide by the capitalist system, which the big corporations benefit from in this country. While they don’t have allegiance to the USA and their people, they certainly do have the same and if not more rights, since the corporate entity is considered a “person” They reap the benefits of citizenship in a capitalist platform, preaching it even, while their investments and allegiance goes to other countries regardless of thier political system. ---
**Author:** ![randy054](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/54ee81/32.png) [@randy054](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/randy054)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 9:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/250 "2010-10-12T21:40:08Z")
> [@](#): > > I think it’s you who’s missing the point. Recent job loss isn’t due to outsourcing, it’s due to the fact that we’re in a major recession caused by a major bubble burst, which was preceded by two foreign wars, a major attack against the US that caused yet more economic disruption, and preceded yet another huge recession and bubble popping. Lets see, we have had stagnant and even declining wages for the lower 2/3 of Americans for quite sometime. Where would have Americans been the past 2 decades were it not for the easy credit cards and equity many pulled from their houses to keep demand high? > [@](#): > > The US will never again be a major labor intensive manufacturing center…it’s just not in the cards. Our people expect too much money to make it a viable option. Which I guess answers my question. Also, as India and China get more educated, the same can said that "our people expect to much money to make it a viable option, when it comes to higher degreed jobs. We see that happening already all over with visas and off shoring of high tech jobs, like GE is doing currently for example in India. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/251 "2010-10-12T22:42:17Z")
> [@randy054](#): > > While they don’t have allegiance to the USA and their people, they certainly do have the same and if not more rights, since the corporate entity is considered a “person” Sigh. No, they don’t have more rights than you do. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/252 "2010-10-12T23:21:54Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > > [@Voyager](#): > > > > No. Plenty of places tried to replicate Silicon Valley. In the 1970s and 80s there was Silicon Glen, Silicon Bayou, and Silicon Alley. > > And lots of auto manufacturers have tried and failed to bust into the Big Three’s backyard. But Toyota and Honda succeeded. > > Someone was going to do the same in IT, sooner or later. The question is, do you want the USA to have a piece of the action or don’t you? The car industry is a bad example. The Japanese companies were already established in their home markets (and the European ones too) long before 1973. What happened then was a change in market share. Sure they moved some manufacturing here, but companies have been moving manufacturing for foreign markets to the destination country for a long time. Notice they haven’t moved their design centers to the US or China. As for your second point, because someone, somewhere might succeed someday they need to commit suicide now? That doesn’t seem very smart. The worry about IP leaking from design center walls is hardly new. I’ve never heard a solution. Why do you think US companies are going to keep a piece of anything? Indian CEOs are cheaper than ours. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/253 "2010-10-12T23:24:53Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Last time I drove through, Silicon Valley wasn’t empty either, if we are going to be all technical about it. 😛 > > -XT You must not have noticed the large number of “For Rent” signs all over then. I used to work in a leased building in an industrial park in Sunnyvale. Over half the buildings are empty. More now since we moved to owned buildings, in which there was plenty of room thanks to the layoffs. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/254 "2010-10-12T23:30:29Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > > [@RickJay](#): > > > > Semiconductors are still the United States’s second largest export type, after commercial aircraft. They’re being made somewhere in the USA. > > > > Heaven knows where you get the idea the USA doesn’t make semiconductors anymore. It’s totally false. > > Intel, alone, has large wafer fabs in Oregon, New Mexico and Arizona. > > Packaging and testing is mostly done overseas, which is true of most US semiconductor companies. Intel alone is it exactly. LSI Logic, now LSI, has become fabless. TI is closing down fabs and is moving stuff to TSMC in Taiwan. I don’t think the IBM fab in Burlington is shut down yet (though it might be) but all the engineers I know who worked there got retired. Yes, test and packaging got done in low cost regions even 20 years ago. But anyone can do that. The value add stuff used to be done here. We don’t have to worry about Intel at least. They know their major competitive advantage is in manufacturing, and they aren’t going to outsource it any time soon. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/255 "2010-10-12T23:44:07Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] You must not have noticed the large number of “For Rent” signs all over then. I used to work in a leased building in an industrial park in Sunnyvale. Over half the buildings are empty. More now since we moved to owned buildings, in which there was plenty of room thanks to the layoffs. [/QUOTE] That’s true, but hardly due solely to the evils of offshoring. I realize that many people don’t know this, but New Mexico actually IS one of the 50 US states…and HP and Intel both have plants here that are going strong. Several other companies are also looking into moving to the wild and woolly South West as well because, frankly, we have an environment slightly more friendly to business than in California (there are other reasons such as the fact that our real estate market isn’t so bloated and distorted that it takes a millionaire to buy a 3 bedroom house with a nice backyard)…i.e. we don’t charge them an arm and a leg in taxes. SV basically priced themselves out of the market, though I happen to know it’s not ‘empty’ by any stretch of the imagination, since I have several friends and fellow colleagues who still work for companies in the area. -XT ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2010, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/256 "2010-10-12T23:50:50Z")
> [@Voyager](#): > > > [@John\_Mace](#): > > > > Intel, alone, has large wafer fabs in Oregon, New Mexico and Arizona. > > > > Packaging and testing is mostly done overseas, which is true of most US semiconductor companies. > > Intel alone is it exactly. > LSI Logic, now LSI, has become fabless. > TI is closing down fabs and is moving stuff to TSMC in Taiwan. > I don’t think the IBM fab in Burlington is shut down yet (though it might be) but all the engineers I know who worked there got retired. > > Yes, test and packaging got done in low cost regions even 20 years ago. But anyone can do that. The value add stuff used to be done here. > > We don’t have to worry about Intel at least. They know their major competitive advantage is in manufacturing, and they aren’t going to outsource it any time soon. But it wouldn’t surprise me at all if, 10 years from now, very little wafer fab was done in the US by Intel. There’s outsourcing and then there’s offshoring. I can see Intel setting up Intel run fabs in China, as they do in Israel. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/257 "2010-10-13T02:52:59Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > (Screwed up quote about stagnant job growth in 2000s - I messed up the coding) > > I’m aware job growth was stagnant during most of the Bush administration, \*in part because unemployment was already so low at the beginning of his administration. \* Nobody’s claimed otherwise. What you haven’t done is demonstrated that tariffs against China will make jobs reappear. Actually I’ve been using China as an example. In my thread about trading blocs I said tariff all the low wage nations. Give them nowhere to run. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > In short, more recent history has not backed your argument for the last 10 years. > > My decision to use an immensely larger data sample is clearly… uhhh, that’s a BAD idea? Times change. They are changing. > [@](#): > > Wow. Bolding mine. > > So I accuse you of citing the 10% as not including people who aren’t taking unemployment benefits. You angrily state that’s not what you said and then… you say it again, claiming the 10% figure doesn’t include people who aren’t getting unemployment benefits. So you’re restating what you stated before - that the 10% figure doesn’t include folks not getting unemployment - while simultaneously, angrily, claiming you said nothing of the sort. > > Again, what you’re saying is false. This is not how U3 is calculated. It has NEVER been calculated this way; never in the entire history of the ILO’s definition of unemployment, and the Department of Labor’s calculation thereof, have people not getting unemployment benefits been excluded from U3. You’re not reading what I said, again. I was referring to people who had exhausted their UI benefits. Not people who didn’t have a job and didn’t take the benefits. > [@](#): > > Anyway, I won’t paste your link because repasting links is messy, but you provide one cite that says that some lost jobs aren’t coming back. Yes, we know. This doesn’t really contradict my claim that some ARE coming back, though. Uhm, you’re moving the goalposts now. You said “a lot of those jobs are coming back”. Cites say 75% are not. That means the vast majority are not. What’s your definition of a “lot”? Is it “some”? That’s wishy-washy. > [@](#): > > So create more. Where? How? How many generations of jobless recoveries do we have to go through where employers squeeze more work out of fewer employees and both research and manufacturing work continues to go overseas? You want me to give you a date on the economic collapse… fine, after you give me a date on when these jobless recoveries will stop and robust job creation will begin. > [@](#): > > Do you seriously think you can prevent research and development jobs from “leaving” the country? How on earth can you do that? Are you going to try to prevent the other 6.7 billion people in the world from researching things? They can research things all day long. YOU are the one who told us we’re not competing against China and the third world for manufacturing jobs. Now the same conditions are appearing with innovation jobs. I guess we’re not competing against the third world for innovation jobs either. Are we? Are we not? Riddle me this, riddle me that - who’s going to get the innovation jobs? The nation with college graduates whose labor costs $80/hour or the one whose college grad research labor costs $10/hour? Do you realize what our standard of living would be if we had to lower our wages to $10 an hour to compete? Oh yes, I get it, we’re not competing with the third world for research jobs… because _what_ again? > [@](#): > > 1. You didn’t really explain anything, you just railed about it. No, I documented it. You declined to read. Biotech offshoring: [http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-04-18/news/17422359\_1\_biotech-industry-biotech-jobs-offshoring](http://articles.sfgate.com/2004-04-18/news/17422359_1_biotech-industry-biotech-jobs-offshoring) > **[Biotech firms outsource to Asia - The World from PRX](https://theworld.org/stories/2017/03/10/biotech-firms-outsource-asia)** > > Global credit crunch forces industry's Western leaders to look east to cut costs. [https://www.globalbusinessinsights.com/content/rbcr0007p.htm](https://www.globalbusinessinsights.com/content/rbcr0007p.htm) China now produces 40% of the worlds photovoltaic cells: so much for the ‘green jobs’ America was supposed to create: > **[人民网--404页面](http://www.people.cn/404/error.html)** > [@](#): > > 1. I don’t see how this has anything to do with manufacturing in China and, again, I don’t understand how it is you’re planning to stop the rest of the world from researching things, or for that matter why it’s a bad idea to have 7 billion people doing research instead of 300 million. 7 billion people aren’t doing research. WTF. Where do you come up with arguments like that? Huh? You don’t see how this has anything to do with manufacturing in China; indeed, you’re not seeing the big picture. We’re losing manufacturing, and now we’re also losing innovation jobs. Everyone is getting a piece of the new, emerging job markets involved in serving the American market… except Americans. Nothing, absolutely nothing new is going to emerge in America in any appreciable numbers until we lower our standard of living to that of the Chinese. And since you want a date for our economic collapse from me, again, I challenge you to give us a YEAR estimate on when you think the next big job boom will be coming. There are at the very least millions of long term unemployed who’d like to know your answer.\* > [@](#): > > If the United States wants to raise tariffs against junk made in China, that’s one thing. You can’t really raise tariffs against ideas, though. I’d just like to give the idea makers here a chance. They’re getting out-competed by idea makers in other countries who offer the same ideas for pennies on the dollar. Think I’m wrong? Try opening a biotech or photovoltaic company here. Also read CalMeacham’s comments - they’re spot on. > [@](#): > > It’s clear that I’m wasting my time here, but I’ll try to explain this in as short and as succinct a manner as I can; jobs are not a limited number of things that we mine up out of the ground and have to keep for ourselves. They’re not limited resources, like coal or oil. Jobs are created through hard work and innovation and trade. If you have a trading partner who does Jobs A, B, C and D, that gives you an opportunity to do Jobs E, F, G and H. The richer the Third World gets, the richer WE have the potential to get. Who’s “we”? It’s the people on top who get richer. In case you haven’t noticed the income disparity between the upper class and the working class has been growing. The working class has not shared in this prosperity. Where are “E, F, G and H”? For the last ten years that has been mostly lower paying jobs than the jobs that they replaced. Under Bush fewer jobs were created than the growth of the working class population. In his last year we LOST 2.6 million jobs. See, this is where you keep showing that your argument regarding economics is religious: you keep telling us offshoring produces benefits that history has not shown it to produce. > [@](#): > > Having enough jobs for everybody is simply not a function of stubbornly holding on to the ones you currently have. If that were true, unemployment would be ninety percent, because most jobs that we’ve had have been eliminated. So far you’ve failed to show where any jobs will come from. We’ve been waiting 10 years for that answer. We don’t need to get to an unemployment rate of 90%. We only need to get to about 25% before this country is certain to tear itself apart. > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > … when even your own economist gods say most of those lost jobs are not. > > Who are my economist gods? Names, please. Adam Smith? > [@](#): > > Economics isn’t religion. It’s science. We should be skeptical of all scientists, because that’s what science is. Economics is a social science, not like science in the way that chemistry is. You can always count on H2O being water. Economics is rife with big laughable mistakes like the post-war economics theories that said inflation and recessions were mutually exclusive. Economics, unlike real science, is not reliably capable of predicting the results of all interactions. It’s fairly unreliable to a level that is completely intolerable in a real science like math, physics or even medicine. Economics depends on the behavior of human beings, which are notoriously inconsistent. Science is closer to a religion. Look at how you hold the free market as practically ‘god’. I would not be surprised if you were to say you believed in laissez-faire economics, which (like Socialism/Communism) is itself a religion because no one has ever actually tried it in its pure form but laissez-faire defenders believe that it is the _one true way_. Hmmmm. I even wonder if [all economists](http://ingrimayne.com/econ/Introduction/Science.html) agree that economics is a “science”. - Of course your answer for why you cannot give a date is similar to what mine would be. Hmmmmm. ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/258 "2010-10-13T03:29:53Z")
> [@Le\_Jacquelope](#): > > Why do I even try… oh well here we go again. Those out of work and not getting unemployment benefits aren’t counted in the typical U3 measurement that the American press goes by. This is not true, as **RickJay** has already pointed out to you. You are misreading him, and then claiming that he’s misreading you. People who exhaust their unemployment benefits are still counted in the U3. They have always been counted in the U3. There has never been a time, ever, when people who exhausted their unemployment benefits were automatically exluded from the U3. Moreover, the BLS does not use unemployment benefits at all, in any form, to calculate any of its U# measures. New claims for unemployment benefits are used to guesstimate the actual umemployment rate, but it is never an official number. Those benefits, and the exhaustion thereof, are not used in any way to calculate any legitimate unemployment rate, precisely because there is too much bias on both ends, from both people who have never applied for the benefits and for people who have exhausted their benefits. Unemployment benefits have nothing whatever to do with the unemployment rate as it is officially measured. The difference between the U3 and the U4 is “discouraged workers”. This is, to say it yet again, completely unrelated to unemployment benefits. Discouraged workers are people who have actually stopped looking for work. If they are still looking for work, even after having exhausted their unemployment benefits, then they’re in the U3 and counted as part of the official unemployment rate. ---
**Author:** ![Le\_Jacquelope](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e0b2c6/32.png) [@Le\_Jacquelope](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Le_Jacquelope)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/259 "2010-10-13T03:47:47Z")
> [@gonzomax](#): > > They are no longer American Corps. They are international and many are not headquartered in the US. They avoid American taxes for the Caimans or Dubai. Funny you should bring up those two tax havens. They both went into ruinous debt and bankruptcy or near-bankruptcy. The Right never, ever wants to address that thorny little issue… ---
**Author:** ![Hellestal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/3ab097/32.png) [@Hellestal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hellestal)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2010, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912/260 "2010-10-13T03:55:54Z")
What bothers me the most about this discussion is how aggressively it misses the point. We have legitimate problems with economic policy right now, problems that could be mitigated to a great extent with the right focus. Frankly, people should be gathered in droves with their pitchforks and torches and badly-spelled posters around the Fed offices. But they’re not. Instead of paying attention to the legitimate issue, we have to be continually distracted by the old, tired, ignorant trade complaints. Our economy experienced its most severe recession since the Great Depression at the exact same time that nominal GDP fell at its fastest pace since the Great Depression. This has nothing to do with trade. It’s a massive demand shock caused by a financial crisis, same as it was in the 1930s. This is not a trade problem, it’s a money problem. Offshoring has highly visible costs, but on net, the benefits outweigh the negatives. That doesn’t make the process painless. It sucks, and some workers take it on the nose. And that’s exactly why we should have unemployment benefits and other programs to ease the trasition, and it’s also why we should be fixing our money problems to spur job growth. But instead of people focusing on what’s actually wrong with the economy, we have this tedious whining about trade that distracts from the real issue. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/offshoring-the-snake-that-is-eating-itself/555912.md?page=14)