# Often: OFF-TEN or OFF-EN? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [October 26, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907 "2011-10-26T21:38:22Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eyebrows_0f_doom/32/3119_2.png) [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eyebrows_0f_Doom)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 2:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/41 "2011-10-27T14:41:54Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Mind you I don’t think pronouncing the T in often is pretentious. I moved to the US from the UK decades ago, and got teased about precise diction - like saying “Mirr-OR” instead of the American “MEER.” Wha? :dubious: Who says “meer” for mirror? I say it closer to Mirr-er, than Mirr-OR, but have never in my life heard MEER from anyone. > [@chiroptera](#): > > Do people really pronounce forte as “fort”? I say for-tay. When using “forte” to refer to what someone is good at, i.e. “painting is her forte,” it \*should \*be pronounced “fort.” The _for-tay_ version refers to the musical term. However, the mispronunciation is now basically standard, because the impression is if you say it properly people will think you don’t know how to say the word. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/42 "2011-10-27T15:00:17Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I’m not really shocked by the concept of linguistic variation. > > The **OED** says: “Often is less commonly used than oft until the 16th cent. Several orthoepists of the 16th and 17th centuries, including Hart, Bullokar, Robinson, Gil, and Hodges, give a pronunciation with medial –t–. Others, including Coles, Young, Strong, and Brown, record a pronunciation without -t-, which, despite its use in the 16th cent. by Elizabeth I, seems to have been avoided by careful speakers in the 17th cent. (see E. J. Dobson Eng. Pronunc. 1500–1700 (ed. 2, 1968) II. §405). Loss of t after f occurs in other cases; compare soften v., and also raft n.1, haft n.1, etc. The pronunciation with -t- has frequently been considered to be hypercorrection in recent times: see for example H. W. Fowler Mod. Eng. Usage (1926), s.v.” > > So there you have it. If you say -t-, you’re well within your rights and following Good Queen Bess. You might want to pronounce “has” and “does” with a final -th sound, too. But you’re in good company, and it’s language, so you’re not _wrong_. Different accents/dialects choose to hang on to different things. I don’t mock Americans for using “gotten”, although weirdly someone once had a go at me on here for using “whilst”. People from where I come from generally sound the “T” slightly. It is how we speak. Which makes your “and I suspect those who say “often” are hypercorrecting based on the spelling” wrong. And a bit judgmental. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/43 "2011-10-27T15:02:58Z")
And I grew up about ten miles from where Shakespeare did. Fuck, I wonder what he said? Probably something mental, like a sounded T at the beginning, no “T” in the middle and a glottal stop somewhere just for shits and giggles. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 3:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/44 "2011-10-27T15:15:47Z")
> [@Siam\_Sam](#): > > Offen. > > Wasn’t there a poll on this before? Yeah, and I [started](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=561523) it. Without the “T” won 71 - 29. ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/45 "2011-10-27T18:17:55Z")
Off-ten. IPA: ɑɔftǝn I think pronouncing it is more commonplace in the south / among those who grew up in the south. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Bosstrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstrain)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/46 "2011-10-27T19:11:00Z")
I actually I say it both ways, it depends on the sentence and the inflection I’m using on it and the words around it. ---
**Author:** ![Farmer\_Jane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Farmer\_Jane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Farmer_Jane)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/47 "2011-10-27T19:17:16Z")
> [@chiroptera](#): > > Do people really pronounce forte as “fort”? I say for-tay. It’s FORT. I hate it when I hear ‘for-tay’. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/48 "2011-10-27T19:44:13Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > People from where I come from generally sound the “T” slightly. It is how we speak. Which makes your “and I suspect those who say “often” are hypercorrecting based on the spelling” wrong. And a bit judgmental. Issues much? It does not make my statement wrong. It merely provides anecdotal evidence that SOME of those who pronounce the -t- are not hypercorrecting. “Some” is only a subset of “all.” Generally, when you have two pronunciations _ **within a given accent or dialect region** _ that are not otherwise mappable onto identity markers such as gender, class, or ethnicity, and one of those two reflects the spelling, the last is a hypercorrection based on orthography. ---
**Author:** ![amanset](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8dc957/32.png) [@amanset](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amanset)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/49 "2011-10-27T20:08:09Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > Issues much? It does not make my statement wrong. It merely provides anecdotal evidence that SOME of those who pronounce the -t- are not hypercorrecting. “Some” is only a subset of “all.” > > Generally, when you have two pronunciations _ **within a given accent or dialect region** _ that are not otherwise mappable onto identity markers such as gender, class, or ethnicity, and one of those two reflects the spelling, the last is a hypercorrection based on orthography. If you meant ‘some’ then you probably, you know, should have written that. But you didn’t. I’d actually put money on half the UK pronouncing the ‘T’. English is spoken differently in different parts of the world. Like the weirdo pronunciation of ‘water’ that appears common in large parts of North America that seems to forgo the whole ‘T’ thing and go for a ‘D’ instead. I reckon you need to travel more. Or at least watch some foreign TV. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 8:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/50 "2011-10-27T20:22:35Z")
> [@amanset](#): > > If you meant ‘some’ then you probably, you know, should have written that. But you didn’t. > > I’d actually put money on half the UK pronouncing the ‘T’. English is spoken differently in different parts of the world. Like the weirdo pronunciation of ‘water’ that appears common in large parts of North America that seems to forgo the whole ‘T’ thing and go for a ‘D’ instead. > > I reckon you need to travel more. Or at least watch some foreign TV. I don’t know why this is upsetting you so. I’m very well informed about the role of dialectal variation in language. I lived in the UK for a number of years. My husband is British. I just don’t agree with you about this particular issue, ONE pronunciation in ONE word, and I’ve provided a reasonably authoritative citation. I don’t see why you keep trying to expand this to broader points. People in my dialect hypercorrect all the time, particularly me \> I and me \> myself; so what? It’s language; people do that. ---
**Author:** ![nudgenudge](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/9f8e36/32.png) [@nudgenudge](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nudgenudge)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/51 "2011-10-27T21:37:13Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > I don’t know why this is upsetting you so. I’m very well informed about the role of dialectal variation in language. I lived in the UK for a number of years. My husband is British. I just don’t agree with you about this particular issue, ONE pronunciation in ONE word, and I’ve provided a reasonably authoritative citation. I don’t see why you keep trying to expand this to broader points. People in my dialect hypercorrect all the time, particularly me \> I and me \> myself; so what? It’s language; people do that. You said “those that say ‘often’”, not “some of those that say ‘often’”, thereby charging all of us oft’ners with hypercorrection. But it’s not an affectation. That’s how it is actually pronounced, sometimes. ---
**Author:** ![Hari\_Seldon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hari_seldon/32/5173_2.png) [@Hari\_Seldon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hari_Seldon)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/52 "2011-10-27T21:37:39Z")
Ofn. It is the only pronunciation shown in my dictionary. (Note there is also no “e” in it either.) All Canadians say “of-ten” Well, they also say “shedule”. “You pays your money and you makes your choice.” Then there is the name of the last letter. But I stop here. ---
**Author:** ![Senegoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senegoid/32/6606_2.png) [@Senegoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Senegoid)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/53 "2011-10-27T21:38:57Z")
“Dreaming of apples on a wall, And dreaming often, dear. I dreamt that, if I counted all, how many would appear?” ---- Lewis Carroll ten ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/54 "2011-10-27T21:54:50Z")
> [@nudgenudge](#): > > You said “those that say ‘often’”, not “some of those that say ‘often’”, thereby charging all of us oft’ners with hypercorrection. But it’s not an affectation. That’s how it is actually pronounced, sometimes. Okay. I’m willing to admit to being wrong, and apologize for making a blanket statement. Two points: (1) Hypercorrections are not the same as affectations, either in denotation or connotation. (2) I didn’t speak from a position of authority. In fact, I indicated that it was an opinion by saying “I suspect that…” and then went and did some research in a later post when called on it. I don’t mind being wrong and I don’t mind learning from my mistakes, but I don’t understand why people are being offended. Really: speak however you happen to speak. I don’t care and I can’t conceive of having a problem with it. I find the variation really interesting. ---
**Author:** ![ZenBeam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/3ab097/32.png) [@ZenBeam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZenBeam)\ **Post date:** [October 27, 2011, 9:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/55 "2011-10-27T21:59:38Z")
> [@Dr.Drake](#): > > The **OED** says: […] The pronunciation with -t- has frequently been considered to be hypercorrection in recent times: see for example H. W. Fowler Mod. Eng. Usage (1926), s.v. 1926 is 85 years ago. Not what _I_ would call recent. Certainly long enough ago for people to now pronounce the “t” simply because their parents and grandparents also pronounced it. ---
**Author:** ![Leaffan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/leaffan/32/299_2.png) [@Leaffan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaffan)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/56 "2011-10-28T00:32:20Z")
> [@Hari\_Seldon](#): > > Ofn. It is the only pronunciation shown in my dictionary. (Note there is also no “e” in it either.) **[1]** All Canadians say “of-ten” \*\*[2] \*\*Well, they also say “shedule”. “You pays your money and you makes your choice.” Then there is the name of the last letter. But I stop here. [1] No. [2] No. Bold insertions are mine. Or was this a whoosh? ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/57 "2011-10-28T00:42:34Z")
More of this descriptivism crap. Fine, from now on I’m going to pronounce it as “OFF - A - TON,” and try telling me I’m wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Siam\_Sam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/d78d45/32.png) [@Siam\_Sam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Siam_Sam)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 2:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/58 "2011-10-28T02:47:23Z")
> [@Eyebrows\_0f\_Doom](#): > > Wha? :dubious: Who says “meer” for mirror? I say it closer to Mirr-er, than Mirr-OR, but have never in my life heard MEER from anyone. I think I heard “meer” among my Arkansas relatives. That’s where my mother was from, but I can’t remember how she herself said it. May be a regional thing. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/59 "2011-10-28T03:00:19Z")
I’m sure you’ve heard “iron” pronounced as “arn” ---
**Author:** ![Dorabella](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f08c70/32.png) [@Dorabella](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dorabella)\ **Post date:** [October 28, 2011, 3:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907/60 "2011-10-28T03:09:05Z")
I pronounce it ‘off-ten’ but I remember being taught at school that it should be ‘off-en’. I guess I just pronounce it the way my parents did. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/often-off-ten-or-off-en/600907.md?page=4)