# Oh beautiful, beautiful meltdown **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 24, 2008, 4:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306 "2008-10-24T04:37:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/41 "2008-10-24T14:53:31Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Respectful disagreement. With equal respect, I figured as much, and I think I’ve seen you say that a car needs brakes only slightly less often than “We’ll swear out the warrant later.” And in the past I’ve agreed with this. That was back when I thought we could survive it if the Republicans took power. I’ve changed my mind largely because of the present Republican gang, but also because I am an empirical kind of guy, and I have been wondering what the evidence really is for all of this. I know that the most recent evidence of what the Republican party does when it has power is crystal clear. But sure, if you’re talking about some Lincoln Chaffees, Olympia Snows or Chuck Hagels, yeah, we could survive them, and they might do okay. Just convince me that we _need_ them. ---
**Author:** ![Robot\_Arm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robot_arm/32/18280_2.png) [@Robot\_Arm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robot_Arm)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/42 "2008-10-24T14:58:07Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Numero Three-o, there must be a center. As a radical, I want radical change. As a committed democrat (small “duh” democrat), I recognize that power properly resides in the center. Speak to the center, listen to the center, move the center, but sudden radical change is dangerous, it offers too many opportunities for the aforementioned scoundrels. Revolution almost never works, we are the rare exception. As Mao said “There is great confusion under Heaven, and the situation is excellent”. Mao was a monster. As was Hitler, Pol Pot, Lenin. Who knows what might have become of Thomas Paine if he had been elected dictator? Power corrupts, neverf forget that. Never! Is that a Joe Bob Briggs reference and an Uncle Duke reference in the same paragraph? If so, damn nicely done; full points. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/43 "2008-10-24T15:00:08Z")
[QUOTE=Hentor] …Just convince me that we need them. [/QUOTE] I offer as evidence: me. And, respectfully, you. ---
**Author:** ![DanBlather](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/f4b2a3/32.png) [@DanBlather](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DanBlather)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/44 "2008-10-24T15:04:34Z")
I’d love to see Obama’s victory speech have a line like the following: “I ask all Americans to remember the John McCain that served his country honorably in the Navy and then for 30 years in the Senate, and not the John McCain that we saw in this election where he listened to the cynical advisers who convinced him to run such a negative and divisive campaign”. ---
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/45 "2008-10-24T15:07:21Z")
McCain would run an attack ad saying that anyone who puts his service in the Senate at 30 years is clearly unqualified to be President. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/46 "2008-10-24T15:07:41Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > **BeeGee:** > > The Social Democrats vs the Democratic Socialists? Look what happened before. During the regime of the Forces of Darkness, the Dems “triangulated”, in pursuit of keeping their butts cozily elected, they became the “Me, too, but not quite so much!” party. Tweedledum and Tweedledumber. > > We need an honest conservative party, and the Pubbies already have all that letterhead printed, and stuff. Flush out the vermin so that we might have a Loyal Opposition. Olympia Snowe is not Tom DeLay (R-Undead). Better still, what we need is a [multiparty system](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269169) with **several** conservative (and liberal, and socialist) parties, each with its own particular vermin content, voters having the option to support the highest-vermin choice if they wish. Plenty of “brakes” in such a system – more and higher-performance than we’ve got now. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/47 "2008-10-24T15:19:31Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > You morons voted for Bush _twice in a row_ and you think McCain’s already a footnote in history? Face it, Obama is going to lose. I wish it weren’t so, if only for the sake of the good name of what was once a country to admire, but don’t ever underestimate the power of the ignorant/bigoted/reactionary/stupid vote, who have shown over this campaign that they’ll happily eat shit and call it brown sugar. There’s a good reason the Republicans are running a stupid and vicious campaign: _they’re courting the ignorant and vicious vote._ What have they got to lose at this point? The election. The thing of it is, Obama was never going to get much of the racist vote, though he has gotten some of it. McCain isn’t going after Obama’s base, but Obama’s going after some of his. The guys who don’t like Obama because he’s black, or think he’s a Muslim, or whatever, can just say they’re voting for McCain because of his positions. Obama is ahead in every Kerry state plus about a dozen more, and all indications are that the Wilder effect disappeared in the 90s. Oh, and do recall that Bush won by the slimmest of margins. Most elections in our history have had a significant margin of victory in the Electoral College and a somewhat smaller one in the popular vote; Bush lost the popular vote in 2000 and won it by 3% in 2004, and won the College by a few votes the first time and a few dozen the second time. Look at Virginia: in 2004 we voted for Bush by a hefty margin, but in 2005 we elected a Democratic governor, in 2006 we elected a Democratic senator, and in 2007 we retook the state Senate. These aren’t hypothetical results, they’re real changes in the demographics in this state. Obama’s going to win Virginia. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/48 "2008-10-24T15:33:44Z")
Y’know, the more I see how well a multi-party system works in other countries, the less I’m interested in having it here. Seems like there’s too much need for the bigger parties to suck off the myriad crackpot parties to build a coalition. Better to have a couple BIG parties so we can freeze out the Naders, Nazis, and nutcases. ---
**Author:** ![groo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/ecd19e/32.png) [@groo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groo)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/49 "2008-10-24T16:03:52Z")
Those Republicans who disagree with how the McCain campaign has been run and who want to establish themselves as being against the policies of the Bush administration and the current RNC can make a very loud statement that they want to work with the non-Republicans by simply voting for Obama. An incredible landslide of the popular vote for Obama would tell the RNC that they’re no longer in control of anything, and that the actual Republicans (the ones on main street) feel so strongly that they were forced to cross party lines and vote for Obama. If it’s just a 55/45 popular vote, we’re still divided and we have to work out our internal issues; if it’s, say, 75/20, the RNC goes back to figure out how they can become relevant again, and the US can turn its attention and energy to addressing the myriad problems facing the US and the world. I absolutely believe this is true, and the main street Republicans can help the nation heal by voting for Obama. That includes you, too, Californians! Yeah, we know Obama will take California, but your vote is part of the message we’re sending to the world and to our children. To do less will be to implicitly condone the disgraceful and repugnant behavior by the McCain campaign. “He’s a Muslim!” “No, he’s not!” “Granted, but the people need to know: Who is Obama?” “He consorts with demons!” “No, he doesn’t!” “Granted, but I didn’t say that in the first place.” “Good, now …” “He consorts with demons!” “He’s a socialst!” “No, he’s not!” “Granted, but just who is Obama anyway?” If we allow the arguments in the next election cycle to stoop to this level, we’ll deserve to be relegated to the dust bin of history. Also, don’t get complacent. I won’t think it’s in the bag until January 20, 2009. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/50 "2008-10-24T16:20:34Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > The spectacle is bettered only by the Dems counting their chickens. Yes, the Dems are counting their chickens before they hatch. But that “betters” the spectacle of the Repubs imploding? I think not. ---
**Author:** ![Spoke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a88e57/32.png) [@Spoke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spoke)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/51 "2008-10-24T16:29:06Z")
Just some more fuel for the fire: Insider Advantage now says Georgia is a virtual tie, both in the Presidential and Senate races. (A Senate win in Georgia could give the Democrats their magic 60.) ---
**Author:** ![Algher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Algher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Algher)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/52 "2008-10-24T16:37:04Z")
> [@elucidator](#): > > Respectful disagreement. > > First, a car needs brakes. Simply because we are usually right does not mean we are always right. And we need someone to blame shit on. When someone on the Loon Fringe proposes a tax credit to fund bi-lingual education for gay whales, we need someone to blame it on when we quietly kill it. > > Second, and more important, the ruling party _always_ attracts the opportunists, people with no pinciple to speak of but an urgent desire for power and influence. A scoundrel in populist clothes is nonetheless a scoundrel. Huey Long leaps to mind. > > Numero Three-o, there must be a center. As a radical, I want radical change. As a committed democrat (small “duh” democrat), I recognize that power properly resides in the center. Speak to the center, listen to the center, move the center, but sudden radical change is dangerous, it offers too many opportunities for the aforementioned scoundrels. Revolution almost never works, we are the rare exception. As Mao said “There is great confusion under Heaven, and the situation is excellent”. Mao was a monster. As was Hitler, Pol Pot, Lenin. Who knows what might have become of Thomas Paine if he had been elected dictator? Power corrupts, neverf forget that. Never! Bravo, and thanks. I am registered Republican, and embarrassed to admit it in public nowadays (and not just because of my daily interaction with academia). I have hated Bush since he decided to invade Iraq, and I have despised my party since they went on their drunken spending spree once they held control. I believe the BEST thing that could happen is that the Republicans kill off those who just joined up due to power. A time in the wilderness to determine what they will stand for would be a Good thing. I will admit that my only true concern is the Supreme Court, but since the upcoming retirements are coming from the Left for the most part (I think) even that does not worry me too much. Bravo to Obama for running a good campaign. Bravo to the Democrats for bringing in some new blood rather than another person with nasty baggage. I have no idea what Obama plus control of the House and Senate will turn into, and I hope that the Democrats don’t screw up the way the Republicans did when they took control under Bush. I have one small hope - that the Democrats do not get a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. I want them to have to get ONE Republican to agree with them, just to keep things under a little bit of control. Good luck Dems - you deserve this victory after the crap the Republicans have done over the past several years. ---
**Author:** ![sqweels](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f19dbf/32.png) [@sqweels](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sqweels)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/53 "2008-10-24T16:40:33Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Better still, what we need is a [multiparty system](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=269169) with **several** conservative (and liberal, and socialist) parties, each with its own particular vermin content, voters having the option to support the highest-vermin choice if they wish. Plenty of “brakes” in such a system – more and higher-performance than we’ve got now. Before we can have a viable multi-party system, we need instant runoff voting. Otherwise, one party will exploit the other side’s vote splitting. ---
**Author:** ![Bosstone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/22d042/32.png) [@Bosstone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosstone)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/54 "2008-10-24T16:56:18Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I believe the BEST thing that could happen is that the Republicans kill off those who just joined up due to power. Cheney will finally have the gun turned on him! ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 4:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/55 "2008-10-24T16:59:41Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Y’know, the more I see how well a multi-party system works in other countries, the less I’m interested in having it here. Seems like there’s too much need for the bigger parties to suck off the myriad crackpot parties to build a coalition. Better to have a couple BIG parties so we can freeze out the Naders, Nazis, and nutcases. We don’t need to “freeze out” the “nutcases,” we need to guarantee them representation in Congress – **as minority POVs.** That provides a safety valve for radicalism – Timothy McVeigh might not have felt so frustrated that he had to express his political views through mass murder, if he had been able to look to Congress and see David Duke or someone like him expounding the principles of White Nationalism in our national councils at taxpayers’ expense. At the same time, if there are **only** one or two David Dukes in Congress, that forestalls any argument that the WNs are really a “silent majority” who can’t get a fair hearing because of institutional freezeout; it shows them, and us all, just how few and weak they are. And “nutcases,” allowed in under fair proportional-representation rules, generally would serve to cancel each other out anyway. David Duke would be in Congress, but he would be balanced by Louis Farrakhan; the Libertarians balanced by Socialists and Communists; etc. Besides, the “nutcases” can serve valuable functions – e.g., paying and calling attention to things the more “mainstream” parties don’t. If we had had a multi-party system in place in 1960, we might never have woken up some time in Johnson’s second term to find we were fighting a massive war in Vietnam. And if we had had a multiparty system in place on 9/11/01 . . . ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/56 "2008-10-24T17:00:51Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > I believe the BEST thing that could happen is that the Republicans kill off those who just joined up due to power. A time in the wilderness to determine what they will stand for would be a Good thing. > > I will admit that my only true concern is the Supreme Court, but since the upcoming retirements are coming from the Left for the most part (I think) even that does not worry me too much. > > Bravo to Obama for running a good campaign. Bravo to the Democrats for bringing in some new blood rather than another person with nasty baggage. I have no idea what Obama plus control of the House and Senate will turn into, and I hope that the Democrats don’t screw up the way the Republicans did when they took control under Bush. > > I have one small hope - that the Democrats do not get a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. I want them to have to get ONE Republican to agree with them, just to keep things under a little bit of control. > > Good luck Dems - you deserve this victory after the crap the Republicans have done over the past several years. Thank you for your civility, your grace and your candor. As a democrat and a Democrat, I want balanced debate and effective compromise. We need a conservative party as much as we need a liberal one. I’d also like to see at least 2 more parties, just to keep everyone on their toes and their noses to the grindstone. I hope the Dems don’t belly up to the trough, but learn from the past 8 nightmare years. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/57 "2008-10-24T17:04:52Z")
> [@sqweels](#): > > Before we can have a viable multi-party system, we need instant runoff voting. Otherwise, one party will exploit the other side’s vote splitting. [I know.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instant_runoff_voting) Also [electoral fusion](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electoral_fusion) and [proportional representation.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Proportional_representation) Check out [FairVote.](http://www.fairvote.org/) Of course, starting from where we are now, with both parties supporting restrictive laws in every state to keep third parties from getting on the ballot even under the **existing** system, it’s rather like agitating for women’s suffrage in medieval England. ---
**Author:** ![MovieMogul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f08c70/32.png) [@MovieMogul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MovieMogul)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/58 "2008-10-24T17:07:10Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > I’ll get along with conservatives after the elections. > > When they suck my cock. Uh, you do know these are the _ **Republicans** _ we’re talking about, right? The line will go out the door. ---
**Author:** ![SmartAleq](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smartaleq/32/163_2.png) [@SmartAleq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmartAleq)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/59 "2008-10-24T17:52:52Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Bravo, and thanks. I am registered Republican, and embarrassed to admit it in public nowadays (and not just because of my daily interaction with academia). I have hated Bush since he decided to invade Iraq, and I have despised my party since they went on their drunken spending spree once they held control. > > Good luck Dems - you deserve this victory after the crap the Republicans have done over the past several years. You, sir, are a mensch! Allow me to offer you my hand in friendship and bipartisanship, because it’s people like you we’re gonna need. I know just what you mean about the embarrassment–it’s been hard as hell being an unabashed progressive (I really prefer the term to “liberal,” because I think it describes us better) for the past eight years when showing any sort of humanity or compassion got you sneered at or called “unpatriotic” or “un-American.” I’m sick of what’s been done to our country–especially the huge erosions of civil liberties that have been allowed with hardly any dissent or even comment. We’re being spied on, listened to, harrassed, refused our first amendment rights, the Constitution has been gutted, we’re one step away from being required to have internal passports to travel within our own country and all of it has been done by people calling themselves “Republicans.” Add to that the economic ruin brought about by the party that has claimed to be for “small government” (read: "government that’s too small to effectively police my illegal/unethical activities) and “fiscal conservatism” (read: “I wanna keep all my taxes to play in the derivatives market, screw the roads and the fire department!”) and that went on a deregulation spree that had all the sense and gravitas of “Lord of the Flies” writ large and you can see why the very word “Republican” has nearly reached the point of being unsayable in polite company. That being said, those of us who think realize that there are still many, many good, thoughtful, sensible, sane people who’ve been calling themselves Republicans (for lack of a better term) who’ve been just as ass raped by the shit flinging baboons of the right as the rest of us have. Those people are the ones we need–they’re the centrists of the right just as many of us are centrists on the left. What say we just redefine our terms, go with “progressive” and “regressive.” In the regressive camp we put the crazies of all stripes and descriptions–the radical eco-terrorists, the fundamentalist abortion clinic bombers, creationism in schools idiots, the anti-freedom crowd, the social conservatives, basically all the in-your-face assholes and fucktards. Let’s pull together and show those shitheads that they are the MINORITY. Let’s show them that we don’t CARE about their narrow little fear based agendas and that we will NOT give up our essential liberties in order to pander to their ridiculous prejudices and paranoias. All the rest of us progressive grown ups in the middle of the spectrum will respectfully resolve our differences, negotiate our agreements, and agree that differences of opinion and belief are not aberrations to be stamped out but are valuable points of view that give us a well rounded and minimally distorted grasp of reality. Let’s show those assholes that being an American means cherishing our differences and celebrating our diversity for the richness and joy it gives our lives. Stop freaking out about “illegal aliens” and think how much it would suck if we didn’t have good Mexican restaurants and salsa music. Stop parsing out our differences and start emphasizing the way we’re the same–we all love our country, we want the best for our fellow citizens and we all want to live our lives in freedom and prosperity and happiness. The time for fear is over, the time for courage is just beginning. ---
**Author:** ![phouka](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c5a1d2/32.png) [@phouka](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/phouka)\ **Post date:** [October 24, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306/60 "2008-10-24T18:00:38Z")
> [@Algher](#): > > Bravo, and thanks. I am registered Republican, and embarrassed to admit it in public nowadays (and not just because of my daily interaction with academia). I have hated Bush since he decided to invade Iraq, and I have despised my party since they went on their drunken spending spree once they held control. > > I believe the BEST thing that could happen is that the Republicans kill off those who just joined up due to power. A time in the wilderness to determine what they will stand for would be a Good thing. > > I will admit that my only true concern is the Supreme Court, but since the upcoming retirements are coming from the Left for the most part (I think) even that does not worry me too much. > > Bravo to Obama for running a good campaign. Bravo to the Democrats for bringing in some new blood rather than another person with nasty baggage. I have no idea what Obama plus control of the House and Senate will turn into, and I hope that the Democrats don’t screw up the way the Republicans did when they took control under Bush. > > I have one small hope - that the Democrats do not get a filibuster proof majority in the Senate. I want them to have to get ONE Republican to agree with them, just to keep things under a little bit of control. > > Good luck Dems - you deserve this victory after the crap the Republicans have done over the past several years. I’d like to join **eleanorigby** in thanking you for your civility and honesty. If Obama wins the presidential election, I look forward in working with conservatives like yourself to heal our country. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-beautiful-meltdown/469306.md?page=4)