# "Oh beautiful FOR spacious skies..".......why "for"? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [January 15, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101 "2007-01-15T18:53:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/1 "2007-01-15T18:53:38Z")
for the linguists out there: what does the word “for” mean in this poem? A whole list of things which are not just beautiful, they are beautiful “for” something. For spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, for pilgrim feet, for patriot dream, for heroes proven\*\* Has the word “for” changed meanings over the past century? Other than this example, are there any well known usages of saying “beautiful for” ? (\*yes, I googled it, and learned there is more than one stanza … 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/earl_snake-hips_tucker/32/3269_2.png) [@Earl\_Snake-Hips\_Tucker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Earl_Snake-Hips_Tucker)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/2 "2007-01-15T18:55:07Z")
Possibly “O beautiful [America] for spacious skies. . . .” ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/3 "2007-01-15T19:03:24Z")
[QUOTE=Earl Snake-Hips Tucker] Possibly “O beautiful [America] for spacious skies. . . .” [/QUOTE] that still doesn’t make sense to me. I would have expected syntax like “O beautiful America, thy spacious skies, thine amber waves of grain…” But “beautiful for” just sounds awkward. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Drake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ad7895/32.png) [@Dr.Drake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Drake)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/4 "2007-01-15T19:11:22Z")
_Oh [America is] beautiful for [its] spacious skies._ The “for” is, I think, a conjunction which means something like “from, because of,” indicating that the source of the beauty lies in skies and grain. Alternatively, you could parse it as _Oh [America is] beautiful [, known] for spacious skies._ ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/5 "2007-01-15T19:12:14Z")
I’m thinking the stanza is one long sentence, i.e. “For [x, y and z] God shed his grace on thee.” As in: “For its superior low-end torque, God gives thumbs up to the Ford F-150 pickup.” Although that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because that sounds like it’s saying God shed his grace on America _because_ of those things, and if you believe in God you would presumably believe that God _created_ those things. So I’m not sure about that part. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/6 "2007-01-15T19:17:30Z")
Hmmm… I like Dr. Drake’s explanation better. Forget mine. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/7 "2007-01-15T19:23:20Z")
Dissecting Katharine Bates’s poem (which was only later set to “Materna,” the tune for the justifiably defunct hymn by Bernard of Clairvaux “O Mother Dear, Jerusalem”), the compressed imagery could be expanded to > [@Paraphrase of the poem](#): > > O America, I consider you beautiful for the following reasons: > [ul][li]for spacious skies[/li][li]for amber waves of grain[/li][li]for purple mountain majesty above the fruited plain[/li][li]for pilgrims’ feet, whose stern impassioned stress built a thoroughfare for freedom across the wilderness[/li][li]for heroes, proved in liberating strife, who loved their country more than themselves, and who loved liberty more than life[/li][li]for patriot[s’] dream that sees your alabaster cities gleam, undimmed by human tears, beyond the years [/ul][/li] > For all these things, America, may God shed his grace on you, and crown your good[ness] with brotherhood from sea to shining sea. As compressed into poetry, it’s a trifle awkward in phrasing in spots. But hopefully that halfbaked expansion clarifies the point. It also says something, both in content and by its origin, that no other “patriotic” song does. And that makes me, at least, love it the more. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 7:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/8 "2007-01-15T19:25:48Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] I’m thinking the stanza is one long sentence, i.e. “For [x, y and z] God shed his grace on thee.” As in: “For its superior low-end torque, God gives thumbs up to the Ford F-150 pickup.” Although that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because that sounds like it’s saying God shed his grace on America _because_ of those things, and if you believe in God you would presumably believe that God _created_ those things. So I’m not sure about that part. [/QUOTE] Hey, I had a hard time handling it when Bob Seger sold a song that was all about integrity for a truck commercial. Don’t tell me God’s sold out too! :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![cmkeller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cmkeller/32/118_2.png) [@cmkeller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cmkeller)\ **Post date:** [January 15, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/9 "2007-01-15T20:15:10Z")
I think “O Beautiful” is meant as a joyous interjection, such as “Hooray.” “Hooray for spacious skies!” is normal construction. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/10 "2007-01-16T02:15:19Z")
I agree with Drake. I read it as being “(America is) beautiful, for a number of reasons, such as spacious skies, amber waves, purple mountains’ majesty, pilgrims’ feet, patriot dreams, etc.” ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/11 "2007-01-16T02:38:18Z")
[QUOTE=lowbrass] I’m thinking the stanza is one long sentence, i.e. “For [x, y and z] God shed his grace on thee.” As in: “For its superior low-end torque, God gives thumbs up to the Ford F-150 pickup.” Although that doesn’t make a whole lot of sense because that sounds like it’s saying God shed his grace on America _because_ of those things, and if you believe in God you would presumably believe that God _created_ those things. So I’m not sure about that part. [/QUOTE] That’s an odd rhetorical form, not an indicative sentence. It’s what’s called _hortatory mode_. When one gives the classic response to a sneeze, “God bless you,” it’s addressed to the person sneezing, but conveying a wish that God do something, i.e., bless that person. (He, being putatively omniscient, presumably hears it anyway.) In this case, it’s an apostrophe addressed to a personified America, whose beauty and heritage is lyrically described in the first half of each verse. And the second half is a hortatory statement which the first half modifies: “God shed His grace on thee [America]” Not “God has shed his grace on…” but “May God shed His grace on…” This is made amply clear in the “Pilgrim Feet” verse, where the understood “may” becomes explicit: > [@](#): > > America, America > May God thy gold refine > Till all success is nobleness > And every gain divine. Remember that the author is a professor at a women’s college, an 1890s liberal in a Boston marriage. Against the big business interests of the time, she is calling on God to remind them of their heritage and their moral responsibility to Him. ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/12 "2007-01-16T04:10:35Z")
I think that “for” has the same meaning as “for” in “I would have drowned if it was not **for** the life jacket”. As in, meaning _because of, due to_ To me > [@](#): > > O beautiful for spacious skies, > For amber waves of grain; > For purple mountain majesties > Above the fruited plain! > America! America! means > [@](#): > > Oh beautiful, \*because of \*spacious skies, > \*because of \*amber waves of grain; > _because of_ purple mountain majesties > \*Located \*above the fruited plain! > America! America! ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/13 "2007-01-16T04:28:55Z")
I think it goes a little bit like this– Danish (or insert random nationality here) dude says to American dude: * * * “You really think your country is so beautiful? Beautiful for what?”\*\*\* American dude responds as he ticks off points on his fingers: _**"Oh… beautiful for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, for purple mountains… (etc, etc,)"**_ ---
**Author:** ![Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/46a35a/32.png) [@Tim\_T-Bonham.net](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tim_T-Bonham.net)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/14 "2007-01-16T12:43:22Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] Remember that the author is a professor at a women’s college, an 1890s liberal in a Boston marriage. [/QUOTE] And there’s a fair amount of speculation that this poem (or parts of it) originated as a love poem to her lesbian partner. Kinda puts a different meaning to lines like > [@](#): > > For purple mountain majesties > Above the fruited plain! doesn’t it? Always makes me laugh when the bule-stocking fundamentalists suggest using this to replace the Star Spangled Banner, because that started as a (gasp) _drinking_ song. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/15 "2007-01-16T13:52:45Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] And there’s a fair amount of speculation that this poem (or parts of it) originated as a love poem to her lesbian partner. Kinda puts a different meaning to lines like doesn’t it? Always makes me laugh when the bule-stocking fundamentalists suggest using this to replace the Star Spangled Banner, because that started as a (gasp) _drinking_ song. [/QUOTE] I was not aware that anyone had firmly established that she was lesbian. Boston marriages were not always between lesbians, you know. As to the OP: > [@Merriam Webster Online](#): > > 3 : because of \ From [Merriam Webster Online](http://www.m-w.com). This is the sense in which the word is being used. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 2:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/16 "2007-01-16T14:59:07Z")
[QUOTE=t-bonham@scc.net] And there’s a fair amount of speculation that this poem (or parts of it) originated as a love poem to her lesbian partner. [/QUOTE] Cite? (not the lesbian part, but that _America the Beautiful_ specifically originated this way) According to [Wikipedia](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Katharine_Lee_Bates) (which, of course, is not the last word in accuracy), > [@](#): > > The first draft of “America the Beautiful” was hastily jotted in a notebook during the summer of 1893, which Bates spent teaching English at Colorado College in Colorado Springs, Colorado. Later she remembered, > > “One day some of the other teachers and I decided to go on a trip to 14,000-foot Pikes Peak. We hired a prairie wagon. Near the top we had to leave the wagon and go the rest of the way on mules. I was very tired. But when I saw the view, I felt great joy. All the wonder of America seemed displayed there, with the sea-like expanse.” The “alabaster cities” part (of a later verse) was, I have heard, inspired by her visit to the [Chicago World’s Fair](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World%27s_Columbian_Exposition#Description). ---
**Author:** ![AHunter3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ahunter3/32/368_2.png) [@AHunter3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AHunter3)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/17 "2007-01-16T15:06:52Z")
It’s poetry-grammar. Didn’t any of you folks have to diagram a sentence? In non-poetic, more conventional phrase order: God shed his grace on thee for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, et. al. In poetic reverse-order grammer, therefore: O Beautiful! For spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, et. al, God shed his grace on thee! “For” is to indicate that the list of beautiful attributes comprise the reason why God oughts shed his grace on thee. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 3:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/18 "2007-01-16T15:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=AHunter3] It’s poetry-grammar. Didn’t any of you folks have to diagram a sentence? In non-poetic, more conventional phrase order: God shed his grace on thee for spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, et. al. In poetic reverse-order grammer, therefore: O Beautiful! For spacious skies, for amber waves of grain, et. al, God shed his grace on thee! “For” is to indicate that the list of beautiful attributes comprise the reason why God oughts shed his grace on thee. [/QUOTE] That suggestion was offered toward the beginning of this thread, but as was noted by the one suggesting it, there’s something mighty strange about saying God “should” shed his “grace” on something due to its positive attributes. Anyway, that’s not how people talk about “grace” in the states these days. Maybe things were different then maybe? -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![Cartigan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4bbf92/32.png) [@Cartigan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartigan)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/19 "2007-01-16T16:50:48Z")
For as a poetic short cut to say “Stands For” that is how I always read it. ---
**Author:** ![scotandrsn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a4c791/32.png) [@scotandrsn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/scotandrsn)\ **Post date:** [January 16, 2007, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101/20 "2007-01-16T17:05:30Z")
[QUOTE=Frylock] That suggestion was offered toward the beginning of this thread, but as was noted by the one suggesting it, there’s something mighty strange about saying God “should” shed his “grace” on something due to its positive attributes. Anyway, that’s not how people talk about “grace” in the states these days. Maybe things were different then maybe? -FrL- [/QUOTE] That would imply then, that “God shed his grace on thee” is in the past tense? What of the next line, then? “…and crown thy good with brotherhood”? Is it in fact “crowned”? I confess I haven’t seen any official written version of the lyrics in some time. If it is “crown”, as I think it is, then it is a further third-person exhortation to God that began with “shed His grace on thee”, in which case the singer is exhorting God to do these things “for spacious skies”, etc. “O Beautiful” and “America, America” are then vocative-case interjections in the verse. In other words, I think **lowbrass** got it in post #5. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-beautiful-for-spacious-skies-why-for/388101.md?page=2)