oh. dear god.

I’m all for people taking responsibility for their own actions, but I’m not sure blaming this 15 year old is the place to begin. Unless I misunderstood, the OP described a problem stemming from limited choices. Taking someone else’s medication is not wise, but it was a foolish act of desperation brought on by not having access to the procedure the young woman had decided she needed. It’s easy to find fault with what she did do, but under the same circumstances what would each of you do?

thank you nice people.
and i think that under current UK law a pregnant woman (of any age) is considered emancipated. and thus able to make her own medical decisions.
hence, her parents can’t force her to have an abortion against her will…which is as it should be.

i did watch Darcus Howe’s Slave Nation. and what annoyed me most about the scottish fundies was that they took their CHILDREN to the protest rally… very logical.

actually, the reasoning behind her actions was based on sound medical understanding…but that doesn’t make any less foolish or desperate.

and the only political party in northern ireland who support abortion law reform as part of their policy is the UDP…the political wing of the loyalist terrorist UDA. who i wouldn’t vote for in a million years.


Don’t bother please. The Ryan just has a bug up his ass concerning me, and lacks the maturity to deal with it appropriately.

So, I assume this means that we are all ok with the parents telling this newly 12-year old that it is about time they move out and find a job?

Note to parents: Possession of a teenager that doesn’t want to talk to you abrogates your parental rights. Is it possible (not to mention likely) that this is just a very stupid 15-year-old girl? Parents have been dealing with unexpected pregnancies for millenia, very few parents have then mutilated the child. It is almost certain that this childs fear of her parents were unwarranted or overimagined.

And where I grew up, they were practically unable to dispense aspirin without consulting my parents. No surgery is without risk, I think it is very fair to say that a parent has the right to know when their child is being put at risk. If the state has reason to believe that the child is rightfully afraid of her parents, to the point that they are willing to fund an abortion without their consent then they should simply terminate all parental rights and make the child a ward of the state and put her in foster care.

When you give my child a drug or procedure without telling me, and then I, unaware, do something that was dangerous (say giving the child aspirin which has a possibly fatal interaction with the painkiller; or asking them to drive to the store when they are on a medication that makes them drowsy) don’t come bitching to me. And don’t be surprised when I feel a strange compulsion to cause harm and damage to those involved.

This same logic could be applied to almost any law. It is absurd to suggest that outlawing abortion will not decrease the amount of them performed, dramatically IMHO.

Probably, yeah. But what are you gonna do? Kids are going to continue making stupid decisions until this planet stops spinning. A society can deal with that in a few different ways:[ul][li]Better education. I think everyone, either pro choice or pro life, will agree that this is a good thing. And if you’re such an idiot that you consider sex education harmful to your kids because of whatever outdated moral system you cling to, well, then you probably shouldn’t be raising children in the first place.[/li][li]Ignore the issue of pregnant teens. Let them either have the babies, with all thinkable social and financial results, or let them risk their health in shady illegal abortion clinics. Preferably, this choice is defended by means of a religion.[/li][li]Legalise abortion, with the notion that the first item on this list gets full attention as well. Strictly define the period in which abortion is still legal, and strictly define the circumstances under which abortion is possible.[/ul]The first item should take place no matter what your stance is. The second item depicts a highly immoral viewpoint, no matter how you defend it. And three is, IMHO, the right solution. And yes, abortion is still a sad and tragic solution. But it’s there because there’s an even more tragic problem to resolve.[/li][quote]
**That said, I’m pro-choice. **
Smart lad. I knew you’d come to your senses. :wink:

Check out these horrific stats about unsafe abortions

And from this well-known story:

Thankfully, things have improved somewhat since then. Somewhat.
Denying a 14 year old girl that was raped the right to an abortion? Anyone who defends such a decision is clearly certifiable. Attorney General my arse.

Abortion is also prohibited in the British Indian Ocean Territory, which is a dependent territory of the UK.

I believe that abortion should be a personal, private choice, but I do have a problem with the arugment that we should make something legal because people will do it anyway. There are better arguments.

Since we really can’t legislate responsibility or ethics, I believe there is no unlocking the hooked horns of “pro-life vs. pro-choice.”

Disagree. Actually, the logic for making cases of rape exceptions with regards to abortion morality is somewhat tenuous.

(On another issue, I would note that your linked source for unsafe abortions notes that 95% of unsafe abortions take place in Third World countries. It is therefore likely that the unsafe abortions are so as part of the general sub-standard medical care in these countries, not as a result of specific issues involving abortion. In the US, most of the unsafe abortions - at least all the ones I’ve heard of - are the result of people without insurance going to back-alley doctors who don’t charge so much).


Yes, those stats are pretty nasty, I don’t think they are a good argument in favor of abortion rights though.

The fact that people do something illegal in a dangerous fashion doesn’t necessarily suggest that it should be made legal just to mitigate the danger.

The other flaw is that a pro-lifer might trot out those same statistics, and add to it that x number of abortions are averted each year due to the deterrent of danger towards getting a backroom abortion.

I’m pro-choice because as much as I feel that abortion is wrong, I think a woman get to choose what happens to her body without my or anybody else’s interference within certain limits.

i.e. I don’t think a minor should make the choice without parental consent,

I don’t think late term abortions should be allowed except in cases of medical necessity. To me the line is currently somewhere around the fourth or the fifth month.

*Originally posted by Coldfire *

Because we all know that unwanted pregancies have been decreasing since the old morality was abandoned and in-school sex education became the norm.

It is obvious that since some sex education has seen an increase (I won’t say that it caused it) in teenage and unwanted preganancies that therefore more sex education will reduce it. Makes perfect sense to me.

I am.

Let me start by saying that I understand the pro-life (or anti-abortion, if you prefer) viewpoint. I will agree that far too many abortions are performed daily worldwide. But I also think that, when all is said and done, almost none of them are my business. This is an issue that will never really be resolved one way or the other. If abortion really is immoral, and an affront to God, fine. Take that into consideration before making your decision. To the select anti-abortioners who feel the need to violently protest, kill abortion doctors (yeah, that’s pro-life…“we’ll do everything to save a fetus, but if it grows up to become a doctor, we just might have to kill it.”), and the like, let me say that the decision to abort is a painful one. I ask you to refrain from bludgeoning someone over the head with your viewpoint. If it were you in that situation, I should think you would want other people to mind their own business, and to not try to get into yours. I ask that you extend the same courtesy to everyone else concerning this issue.

So, we should decrease sex education, obfus?

You answer your own question when you say “I won’t say it caused it”. It’s not about causality. It’s about dealing with an issue that won’t disappear just because some people choose to close their eyes for it. To turn this into a logical problem makes little sense: if everyone applied good logic 100% of the time, we wouldn’t be having this discussion.

In short: kids WILL have sex. They will be better prepared if we teach them what to do, and what NOT to do. The fact that kids NOW have more sex/sex at a younger age is relevant, but only because it should prompt us to spend MORE attention on sexual education. Apathy is not the answer.


Personally, I’m against sex-ed in the schools other than that required for biology and such.

It’s a values and ethics thing as well, and it should be best discussed in the home.

Make it an elective and I have no problem with it, though I think it’s a waste of time.

Hearkening back to my high school days, I got absolutely no new information from my health classes, and I think there’s too much fluff education or politically motivated classes already.

Actually the PUP have pro-choice in their platform too. But, same problem, obviously.


Yes it would be absurd, but irishgirl didn’t suggest that. She said simply that outlawing it doesn’t STOP it happening, which is patently true. The question is how many deaths of women is that decreased abortion rate worth to you. In my view, even one is too many.

I didn’t mean to attribute that to irishgirl. My direct response to her was in my first sentence. “This same logic could be applied to almost any law”. E.g. if you legalized robbery you would have fewer murders of innocent witnesses etc. etc.

This would appear to dependent on your views about the morality of abortion itself. Making its use as an independent argument pointless.

If you look closely, you will see that I did not ask a question.

I’m just saying that there is little evidence that more sex education or more liberal abortion laws will reduce the incidence of STD transmission or unwanted pregancy.

I think it is pretty clear from the historical evidence that repressive social environments are more successful at preventing these things than sex education.

I have no problem with sex education in schools. I just think that the argument of it being important as a prophylactic is stupid. Young boys are going to make bombs; it is a near universal boyhood experience to blow shit up. Should schools start classes on bomb-making so that the boys will know how to responsibly use bombs? Sex education should be taught because it is knowledge about the real world (and similarly, if a school wants to teach Proper Bomb-Making Methods 101, I am fine with it). The moral decisions associated with these activities are not appropriate for schools.

I’m also pro-abortion, but as has been stated, the argument that it should be legal for no other reason than that they will happen anyway is bogus.

This isn’t the case in the UK. Nobody has offered a satisfactory explanation though.

This doesn’t make any sense to me. What point are you making in saying that some sex education has “seen” an increase in teenage and unwanted preganancies unless you’re implying that it caused this to happen? I don’t see any connection at all.

I think you’re confusing a legal right to abortion (which I believe irishgirl is defending) with the procedure itself (which is indefensible, but may reluctantly be deemed necessary). I think your other comments are sound enough.

In my Utopia there would be no abortions because there would be no demand for them. Back here in the real world we have to take practical measures to approach this ideal, and making abortion illegal doesn’t seem to help as far as I can see.

It makes perfect sense to do what we can to encourage parents to take responsibility for all aspects of their children’s moral education until they are old enough to fend for themselves. Only under extreme circumstances should the state take over this responsibility (such as when a father has made his own daughter pregnant, but I’m sure you can think of other examples).

But it’s very difficult to design a system where parents are both enabled and forced to have good relationships with their kids. What we are doing instead is an unsatisfactory but pragmatic way of coping with a very imperfect world.

I will not participate in an abortion debate…I will not participate in an abortion debate…I will not participate in an abortion debate…