# Oh dear...I kind of agree with the "racist" **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [December 23, 2005, 12:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892 "2005-12-23T00:42:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/101 "2005-12-24T04:19:46Z")
> [@Shagnasty](#): > > Judgements on names are not independent of the culture that uses them. For example, I doubt that “Guapker” would be a chosen name for normal girls anywhere. Why not? You have never heard that name before because I just made it up and yet you have an opinion on the type of person that would have it. How about “Froitilang” for a nice masculine boy? What is wrong with that made up name? No one has ever had it so it must be perfectly neutral right? Besides the fact that the names are ugly imo, there’s nothing wrong with them. All names were made up at some point. It’s not like there was a certain time period after which no more nice names were able to be created because all the good sound mixtures were all ready used up. There’s plenty of other ugly sounding names out there too imo, like Gregory and Mathlida. > [@](#): > > Obviously that is not correct. Sounds carry meaning even if we have never heard them before. Humans are built to respond to sounds in certain ways and even new sounds carry meanings. Poor black names are made up on purpose to carry a connotation that the rest of society considers less than ideal. That can come back to bite their kids in the ass. Simple. Well the thing is that these names aren’t naturally trashy. There’s nothing about the sounds in the name LaTonya or QuaDarius that causes the average human language center to think “uneducated loud-mouthed ghetto dweller”. It’s just that they’re used by blacks. The same thing happened to old names like Tyrone and Darnell. The same thing would happen to Logan if whites dropped it and lots of blacks picked it up. ---
**Author:** ![Sternvogel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bc79bd/32.png) [@Sternvogel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sternvogel)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/102 "2005-12-24T04:28:31Z")
> [@Zoe](#): > > My understanding is that Dr. Rice’s mother chose the italian musical designation _condoleeza_ for her daughter. Actually, the musical direction is _con dolcezza_ – “with sweetness”. The name Condoleezza combines the two words into one and replaces the second _c_ with an _e_, but preserves the double z which makes “Cone doelCHETSa” the approximate pronunciation of the term which Condi’s mother, a pianist, either [accidentally or deliberately misspelled.](http://www.gawker.com/news/alessandra-stanley/the-alessandra-stanley-watch-live-from-chicago-edition-137335.php) (Warning: linked article is itself work-safe, save for one vulgarity, but the page contains a rather racy photo as part of an ad.) **saoirse** : Kweisi Mfume gave himself that name as an adult – he was originally known as [Frizzell Gray.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kweisi_Mfume) **kelvinator** : Using “black” (or “Black”, as some prefer) to refer collectively to members of the Negroid race\* is fine regardless of the nation(s) of residence of the specific people to whom you’re referring. “African-American” is okay as long as you don’t use the term to erroneously refer to such individuals as Nelson Mandela, who’s obviously African, but certainly not American. - of course, the whole concept of race is fraught with difficulty, but that’s a topic for another thread (indeed, many other existing threads) ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/103 "2005-12-24T04:29:31Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > There’s nothing about the sounds in the name LaTonya or QuaDarius QuaDarius seems hard to spell, what with that capital right in the middle. But I think it’s an attractive name. LaTonya doesn’t register with me one way or the other. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 5:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/104 "2005-12-24T05:07:14Z")
> [@](#): > > **eleanorigby** : I wonder if in 15 years we won’t see a trend in court orders to change spellings to match commonly accepted ones. I see nothing racist in that at all–it is a fact that the white anglo-saxon culture, for good or ill, IS the predominate one here. But it may not be the predominate culture in fifteen years. And as our world grows smaller, perhaps Mandarin Chinese will become the predominate langugage on Earth. Maybe we really don’t want to follow the “commonly accepted” route after all. > [@](#): > > **eleanorigby** : For me, more than anything else, it is the mis-spellings and strange, unexpected pronouciations that bother me. The _parents_ determine how a child’s name is spelled and it is recorded on the birth certificate. Any deviation from that is the one that is incorrect. I had a friend once whose name was Shelia. Most women whose name sounded like hers spelled it S-H-E-I-L-A. That was fine for them. My friend’s name was also spelled and pronounced correctly. The same holds true for any proper noun. That’s why towns and cities are pronounced one way in one state and pronounced another way in another state. Neither is incorrect. How do you pronounce _Missouri_? Most people who live there put a little bit of an “uh” sound at the end. Many others put an “ee” sound. Is one group pronouncing it incorrectly? Nope. > [@](#): > > (I have yet to see a good defense of misspelled “regular” names–is that also a show of “black solidarity” or is that rampant ignorance on the part of individuals? If Antwan is supposed to show French heritage, why not spell it Antoine?) I think the answer is that “Antwan” is _not_ supposed to show French heritage. 🙂 > [@](#): > > Enough “bad” and a name falls from favor: Hubert or Ethel, anyone? But you see for a long time, those names weren’t “bad.” They were desireable and then passed from favor as did Mabel, Florence, Edna, and Isabella. Oops! Ever now and then, one creeps back in to the hit parade. I grew up in the era of Patsy, Betty, Linda, Peggy, Judy, Carolyn, Sarah, and Sandra. After my generation came Debbie and Tammy and then Jennifer. Eventually the doors at the nursing homes are going to say “Brittany” and “Bailey.” Their grandchildren named Sunroad, fdiufui, Kyrie-Ellieason, and Eugene will come to visit them. Eugene will notice Grammy Baily smells funny and fdiufui will be restless and pick at the furniture. > [@](#): > > **Shagnasty** : Poor black names are made up on purpose to carry a connotation that the rest of society considers less than ideal. Are you serious? I find many of the names to be very lyrical. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/105 "2005-12-24T05:16:46Z")
**Sternvogel** , thanks for the work on the italian musical term and its connection to Dr. Rice. You don’t also know why former Sec. of State Colin Powell pronounces his name in such an unusual way, do you? Now _there_ is a pronunciation that might have been expected to work against him, but he has done reasonably well. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 5:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/106 "2005-12-24T05:43:58Z")
> [@uglybeech](#): > > What??? How are Charlayne, Audre and Coretta “trash names,” but not Oprah, Joycelyn, Condolleeza, Zora, Chaka or Tavis? Not associating myself with the “trash names” concept at all, “Oprah” is a misspelling of the biblical name “Orpah” and “Condoleezza” is derived from the Italian musical expression “Con dolcezza” (with sweetness). No idea about Zora, Chaka or Tavis. ---
**Author:** ![Stonebow](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ed8c4c/32.png) [@Stonebow](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stonebow)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/107 "2005-12-24T05:45:01Z")
> [@Omega Glory](#): > > Well the thing is that these names aren’t naturally trashy. There’s nothing about the sounds in the name LaTonya or QuaDarius that causes the average human language center to think “uneducated loud-mouthed ghetto dweller”. It’s just that they’re used by blacks. Slight correction, these names tend to be used by blacks that are in lower socio-economic levels. I’d contend that almost exclusive use of these names by “uneducated loud-mouthed ghetto dwellers” has led to the aversion by middle class (predominantly white) society. As someone posted earlier, I see the same reaction to Raylene, Shirlene, Lurlene, Darlene, Sharlene, Marlene (often sisters), or Billy Ray, Bobby Sue, Andy Don, Jimmy Lee, etc among white folk. And of course, extra points for use of any minor prophet names. ---
**Author:** ![zoogirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/b9bd4f/32.png) [@zoogirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zoogirl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/108 "2005-12-24T06:05:32Z")
Well, I don’t really have much of an opinion about African-American names. i’m just not exposed to them outside of TV and the net. What I do hear is “trash” names. Case in point. I have a young volunteer at work. She’s nine. When I heard her name, my first thought was “Oh crap, mom’s a crackhead.” Turns out, I was mostly right. Her stepmom’s definately skeevy (jail tattoos, tenous grip on reality) and dad’s apparently a Hell’s Angel, according to stepmom. Real mom’s only in the picture part time. The girl’s name is Destiny. Now, to me, that just screams trouble. The only other Destiny I knew was also the daughter of a serious drug abuser. The whole -iny/ty thing is even spoofed in Trailer Park Boys, with young Trinity. You just know she’s never getting out of the park. It’s a future stripper name, right up there with Tina, Crystal and any version of Kat. Oh, and wasn’t Aquanetta a Fifties movie star, did a lot of movies that involved water? ---
**Author:** ![Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hilarity_n.suze/32/6223_2.png) [@Hilarity\_N.Suze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hilarity_N.Suze)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/109 "2005-12-24T06:26:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Oh I know, now you’re going to tell me this was some specific white girl that had a baby at 14 so you’re not being a classist or racist or anything Sorry to be confusing. This was Chanta’s mom, again according to Chanta. Sorry if you think she’s a “stupid stereotype”–she was a person I worked with, not stupid at all, _but she had a stupid name._ I do know of white girls who had kids at 14. I don’t know of any rich girls that did. > [@](#): > > Have any of your anecdotes actually involved a black person? They’ve all been whites (or one person who goes in the “other” category). Chanta, as mentioned. Treycee was oriental. > [@](#): > > And all you’ve convinced me of is that you’re not just bigoted in the abstract, but you’re equally nasty about people you actually know. This is true. I knew or knew of the following people: Stuffy, Twist, Puddin, Skeeter, Salty, Tweet, Bobbin, Kayper, Kimmer, Fabby. These people are all women, all filthy rich, and I think their name are ridiculous too. Of course these are not their real names, except for Kimmer and Twist, but they are the names they have _chosen_ to be called. It astounds me that a woman entering her 60s can prefer Puddin (pronounced like “pudding” only drop the G) to her given name. When a friend of mine told me the name she picked for her son–Rafer–I could not hide my disbelief, even in person. Let me just say that, combined with his last name, this was a particularly unfortunate choice in my opinion. Which as you might guess did not matter to the mother at all. I also had a college friend who named her daughter Georgette (in 1975!), after her beloved and recently deceased childhood pet, a cocker spaniel. Yes. She named her daughter a name that was not only ugly and out of fashion, but had previously belonged to a dog, because she just loved the name. So–I’ll throw another ethnic stereotype in here–my friend is Jewish, she had two sets of dishes, I thought they had rules about names, too. Georgette? Yeah, I think this was stupid. Maybe stupid is a little harsh. I was thinking this friend might have had just the one too many psychedelic experiences. So, was Georgette a nice kid? No; she was a hellraiser. > [@](#): > > Your ultimate “point” ends up being that anybody that doesn’t name their kid Mary Elizabeth or John Michael is ignorant human waste No. I really don’t think I phrased it all that strongly. Although I admit to a long list of names I would have not named a kid, given the surname. For instance: Chevy Chase, Learned Hand, Armand Hammer, Safety First (a doctor in Tulsa, not as well known as the others on this list and outside of Tulsa known chiefly on account of the name). I don’t have any kind of problem with whatever somebody names their kid, it’s their right. But I do have the right to snicker behind their back. Or think about this. Some black child is named Antwan. At school he’s asked his name (or his mother is), and on hearing “Antwan” the teacher–who will, we hope, be an educated person, who knows how the name is usually spelled, will say, “A, N, T, O, I, N, E?” In a certain context this itself might be perceived as negative by the child–as a problem. At any rate it’s certainly going to be repeated many times. Eventually somebody is going to tell him he’s spelling it wrong. Someone said that however someone spells and pronounces their name is correct, and that’s true, once it’s your name, it’s your name. But this kind of thing eventually could cut Antwan out of the mainstream, if that’s where he wants to be. “Antwan,” actually, is a bad example. If I heard “Antwan” and didn’t know how it was spelled and needed to know, I would ask. That spelling has become popular enough to enter into mainstream. I’m just saying, basically, not all of these people were named with intent. If someone is named Ntozake that is cool, I kind of admire that name (although I would have to take notes on how to pronounce it) and it sounds like some research and thought went into it, _unlike Chanta,_ whose mother couldn’t even be bothered. I think it’s fine if blacks, or anybody, harken back to their heritage. But a name like “Ortralla” is obscure, hard to spell, and just plain ugly, and I don’t know why anyone would lay a name like this on a kid unless there was some kind of inheritance attached to it. [Note that I latched onto “Ortralla” from a criminal case. Ortralla was not the criminal. The name may actually be “Otralla” as it was spelled both ways in the news story.] > [@](#): > > … which is completely retarded, and the product of a horribly provincial imagination, jam-packed with vicious stereotypes about blacks and poor whites. Well, thanks. Can I use this as my sig line? ---
**Author:** ![AuntiePam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/f19dbf/32.png) [@AuntiePam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuntiePam)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/110 "2005-12-24T06:40:31Z")
> [@Cunctator](#): > > I’ve noticed that trend too. My family has started referring to those sorts of names as a “classic victim’s name”. Different terminology; same idea. Could be, but it could also be that once we accept that there’s such a thing as a classic victim’s name, we notice those names more than the ordinary ones? There are probably as many Johns getting Darwin Awards as there are Darwins. Two victims who made the news around here were named Jetseta and Evelyn. For some perverse reason, it didn’t surprise me to learn that Jetseta’s mother showed bad judgment in other areas besides child-naming, but I was surprised about Evelyn. Seems like if you’re going to name your child after grandma, you’re going to show good judgment in other areas too. Not so, in this case. Thing is, the names had nothing to do with the fates of these two little girls. If they’d been Mary and Joan, they’d still be dead. Like others have said, it’s **our** problem and society’s problem if we judge people by their names, or by who named them. It’s one thing to smirk at a classroom full of variations of Caitlyn (how the hell is it supposed to be spelled anyway – who remembers?) but it’s another thing to judge them or their parents because of their name. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/111 "2005-12-24T06:51:22Z")
> [@cowgirl](#): > > Would it be acceptable to suggest that Jewish families would be ill-advised to name their kid Hershel or Bluma? (Just because you quoted me) In the past, at least, yes, which is why in the 1920s and 30s, so many Jewish kids got good Anglo-Saxon names like “Irving” and “Stanley” It seems to me that, regardless of whether its good or bad, there is going to be prejudice against people with unusual names, including “black” names. Now, you might say that’s racist or classist, and it might be…you might be right. However, even if it is racist or classist, it also is the situation that exists, and there’s no indication that will change any time soon. That being the case, it seems like the parents of a kid disadvantage him or her if they give him or her a name like some of those mentioned earlier in the thread. You can be morally outraged by that if you want, but, as someone once said, “The world is as it is, and not neccesarily as we would wish it.” ---
**Author:** ![eleanorigby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ee7513/32.png) [@eleanorigby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eleanorigby)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/112 "2005-12-24T12:19:02Z")
**Captain Amazing** --good post and my point exactly. Is is really surprising that people have strong opinions about names? That’s all these are, opinions. I will continue to mentally roll my eyes at the Chastitees I meet, as I do at the LaTashas. And the Coles, Dylans, Ashleys and Emilys out there as well–trendy names are just that–trendy. I prefer classics. YMMV. Sorry bout the Cyrano bit–I couldn’t remember if he was French or Italian-but like the rest of my posts, the ethnic origin of the named person was irrelevant to my point. Oh, and since Joshua is not the equivalent of God to me, I don’t mind it one bit–nor is Mary for that matter. I wouldn’t be in the least bit surprised to find that someone out there has indeed named their kid God. And pronounced it Good. I also don’t mind Vishnu, since I’m not Hindu–if someone starts to spell it Veeshnou-I will have an issue. Re the bit about parents having total control over how their kid’s name is spelled and pronounced etc–bollocks. Conventional spellings exist so that we can all get along–just like regular words. Parents are not all supreme beings who get to impose quirks onto not only their offspring, but also the literate world. Perhaps it is this resentment that leads to the disdain on the part of folks for out of the ordinary names. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/113 "2005-12-24T13:55:55Z")
> [@Stonebow](#): > > Slight correction, these names tend to be used by blacks that are in lower socio-economic levels. I’d contend that almost exclusive use of these names by “uneducated loud-mouthed ghetto dwellers” has led to the aversion by middle class (predominantly white) society. As someone posted earlier, I see the same reaction to Raylene, Shirlene, Lurlene, Darlene, Sharlene, Marlene (often sisters), or Billy Ray, Bobby Sue, Andy Don, Jimmy Lee, etc among white folk. And of course, extra points for use of any minor prophet names. I’m not sure I buy this completely. I went to a private college with a tuition of about $27,000 per year. The college had a dinner especially for minority students and their parents. A large percentage of the black students there had “black” names. Now some of these people might have come from a poor background, but I’d bet that a good number of them were from middle class families. Black Americans usually gave their children traditional names up until very recently. It doesn’t seem to have done them much good. ---
**Author:** ![Omega\_Glory](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/7c8e57/32.png) [@Omega\_Glory](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Omega_Glory)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/114 "2005-12-24T13:58:13Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > QuaDarius seems hard to spell, what with that capital right in the middle. True. I don’t know if there’s anyone out there with that name though. I just made it up as an example, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there are kids with that name. ---
**Author:** ![cowgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8c91f0/32.png) [@cowgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cowgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/115 "2005-12-24T16:01:20Z")
> [@eleanorigby](#): > > For me, more than anything else, it is the mis-spellings … that bother me. Does “[Eoghan](http://www.behindthename.com/php/view.php?name=eoghan)” bother you? How about John and Jon? Catherine, Catharine, Katharine, Katherine, Kathryn? Shawn/Shaun/Sean? Elizabeth/Elisabeth? Ann/Anne? These are old, old names, with alternate spellings that each have long traditions. Are they bothersome too? Because if it was really about the spelling annoyance, I feel that Catherine/Kathryn should be as annoying as the other examples listed in this thread. For some reason, people don’t complain as much about those. > [@Otto](#): > > Not associating myself with the “trash names” concept at all, “Oprah” is a misspelling of the biblical name “Orpah” and “Condoleezza” is derived from the Italian musical expression “Con dolcezza” (with sweetness). > > No idea about Zora, **Chaka** or Tavis. Chaka is a traditional [African](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shaka_Zulu) (and, it seems, medieval Indian) name. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/116 "2005-12-24T16:04:37Z")
> [@Hilarity N. Suze](#): > > I also had a college friend who named her daughter Georgette (in 1975!), after her beloved and recently deceased childhood pet, a cocker spaniel. Yes. She named her daughter a name that was not only ugly and out of fashion, but had previously belonged to a dog, because she just loved the name. So–I’ll throw another ethnic stereotype in here–my friend is Jewish, she had two sets of dishes, I thought they had rules about names, too. Georgette? Yeah, I think this was stupid. Maybe stupid is a little harsh. I was thinking this friend might have had just the one too many psychedelic experiences. So, was Georgette a nice kid? No; she was a hellraiser. There is also an obvious cultural reference in 1975 to the name Georgette. And there is nothing inherently ugly about “Georgette.” It’s just out of fashion. There are other “ette” names that people don’t consider ugly–Jeannette, Lynnette, Yvette. ette cetera. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Askia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/96bed5/32.png) [@Askia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Askia)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/117 "2005-12-24T17:54:59Z")
I finally noticed this thread yesterday. I slept on my response, because I knew it would be long. The naming tradition in any culture pretty much says “name your kids after your family forebearers or culturally important personages or currently popular choices.” In America, though at one time they used to automatically “Americanize” the names of Ellis Island immigrants, it’s now generally permissible to keep your traditional ethnic surnames if you’re an immigrant or expatriate family. In the age of literacy, there are also standardized spellings and recognized variants and diminuatives that are important considerations. There are also names that are considered very conservative or have moderate to liberal connotations, too. So, ethnically, culturally and politically, you have three ways to pick a name. 1. Follow your naming tradition. (i.e., choose a culturally traditional name, or a name of a forebearer, either from your native culture or the dominant one in the region you live) 2. Ignore your naming tradition. (i.e., invent a name, or select a meaningful name deliberately picked far aside the dominant culture) 3. Subvert your naming tradition. (examples include phonetically traditional names with nontraditional spellings or really obscure or unpopular Biblical names, or a name typically reserved for one of the opposite gender, or give the kid a name that’s not even a proper noun.) Lots and lots of people from lots and lots of cultral backgrounds put lots and lots of stock in deifying the naming process. I can sum this up with the meme, “Your name is your destiny.” Carrie A. Nation, aside, that’s bullshit. But it’s a widespread and fondly cherished bit of bullshit. I subscribe to it to an extent: I, for one, have never met a black man named “Peanut” who didn’t _need_ a righteous foot up his ass. My proudest achievement as an uncle is how I actively stopped my sisters from hanging that nickname on my nephew Vincent weeks after he was born, because I didn’t want to have to kick his narrow ass when he got older. People who really, really hold a lot of stock in names, who are intolerant of names outside traditional choices, who are damn near hostile of names outside the Anglo-Saxon-Biblical-cultural sources, are basically name bigots. I, too, am a name bigot, particularly when it comes to people who choose invented names for their kids. If you select choices #2 and #3, you’re going to rankle some people, you may be putting up some barriers for your child as they grow older. But – as someone with a different and unusual name – some choices within #2 and #3 at least make some sense to me. I like “Apple.” I dislike “Khattheryne” as a variant spelling (think Hepburn.) I think “Moxie Crimefighter” is a hoot. Most three-syllable invented urban African-American first names for girls – with “Sha-” “Cha-” “La-” “Ti-” “Ja-” prefixes ending with “-qua” -da" “-dra” “-nina” -shelle" “-ana” “-ria” – have grown on me. I have always liked two-syllable Islamic-esue names like Malik, Juwan, Khalil, Wakan, Durell, Tyreek and Ali for boys. It’s a disadvantage to ignore or subvert naming traditions ONLY if it’s your plan for your family and your child to actively assimilate into or actively influence the American mainstream. Many, many, many urban African-Americans don’t, just as many Southerners don’t, just as many don’t care to name their black kids typical American names. Naming themselves after presidents in the aftermath of the Civil War didn’t prevent blatant discrimination Jim Crow. As others have pointed out, in African American history this has been going on a long time. If you look at names in the urban North at that time, I begin to see many proto-examples from the 1930s — NOT just the 1970s as wrongly asserted earlier. I think it reached a critical mass in the early 60s in conjunction with (often) college students starting families during the Civil Rights movement, along with the vogue with Islamic names when blacks converted to (or flirted with) the Nation of Islam. (Although that started back in the 1940s) To sum up: names have exaggerated meaning. Some names have connotative meanings that people use to make socioeconomic and educational judgement calls about the people who have them, and when it relates to job hiring, that’s wrong. Think about it! Without even meeting the person, you’re assuming you know all you need to know based on a name. That’s discrimination, that’s prejudical and it’s bigoted behavior ---
**Author:** ![ratatoskK](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ratatoskk/32/2987_2.png) [@ratatoskK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ratatoskK)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/118 "2005-12-24T18:12:36Z")
**Askia** , well put! I don’t have anything as erudite to say, just that some “black” names I find very appealing, and some are kind of dumb, like any made-up name. Also, the spelling issue is somewhat important in my opinion (for any kind of name) – we don’t need ten freakish ways of spelling Sarah when one or two will make sense. I grew up with a difficult last name and was really sick of correcting other people’s pronounciation and spelling all the time. Of course, the last name wasn’t a choice, but a first name is. ---
**Author:** ![saoirse](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/5daacb/32.png) [@saoirse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/saoirse)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2005, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/119 "2005-12-24T18:34:00Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Couldn’t they go the 133t route and just go with Angel\<3? That looks more like “Angel Boobs,” though. How would you like your teacher calling that out on your first day of school? ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 25, 2005, 7:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892/120 "2005-12-25T07:10:28Z")
> [@Otto](#): > > Not associating myself with the “trash names” concept at all, “Oprah” is a misspelling of the biblical name “Orpah” and “Condoleezza” is derived from the Italian musical expression “Con dolcezza” (with sweetness). > > No idea about Zora, Chaka or Tavis. Zora sounds vaguely Russian to me. **zoogirl** , my name is Kathleen and I go by Kat. I hope you’re not implying that MY nickname is a stripper name! (A friend started calling me that and it stuck.) **Zoe** , I read somewhere that the reason Colin Powell pronounces his name differently is that that is the way the name is pronounced in Jamaica, where he grew up. Oh, and IIRC, Caitlyn is the old Gaelic spelling of Kathleen. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-i-kind-of-agree-with-the-racist/336892.md?page=7)