# Oh dear, the violence has started **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [October 16, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778 "2016-10-16T22:25:15Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/41 "2016-10-16T23:38:50Z")
> [@Jragon](#): > > Nah, I’ve seen plenty of Swastikas used by libs in criticism of Trump. That’s actually the scary thing about this election, the propaganda praising him by white supremacists is almost indistinguishable from the propaganda criticizing him for catering to white supremacists. > > E: Like, I wouldn’t be surprised if this was an attack somebody wants to pin on the dems to help Trump, but I also don’t think it’s unlikely that a radical leftist did it. Using swasitaks in relation to supporting Trumpy Wumpy is absolutely and positively correct. No doubt about that. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/42 "2016-10-16T23:39:20Z")
> [@DSeid](#): > > IANAL but ruling that the government cannot constitutionally punish abstract advocacy of force or law violation is different than stating that specific calls for violence are prohibited. Advocating the arson of a specific property owned by a specific individual is not abstract, and instead meets the Douglas “speech is brigaded with action” standard that would be against the law. It’s not really worth debating in this thread. The kind of speech Locrian used in this thread is constitutionally protected because it fails at least two elements of the \*Brandenburg \*test. ---
**Author:** ![WillFarnaby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/willfarnaby/32/514_2.png) [@WillFarnaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WillFarnaby)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/43 "2016-10-16T23:48:41Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > I’m pretty sure I join like 99% of the posters on this board in wholeheartedly condemning this dangerous violence. I am really glad that Clinton doesn’t wink at it or do anything to suggest that this is an appropriate response to one’s political enemies. Yes, according to Clinton, violence against political enemies is only appropriate when they are brown and outside of the United States. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/44 "2016-10-16T23:48:48Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > He already Tweeted that it was done by “Animals representing Hillary Clinton”. While the actual North Carolina Republican Party thanked Secretary Clinton for her concern and thoughts. Glad none were hurt. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/45 "2016-10-16T23:49:06Z")
> [@Richard\_Parker](#): > > It’s not really worth debating in this thread. The kind of speech Locrian used in this thread is constitutionally protected because it fails at least two elements of the \*Brandenburg \*test. nm ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/46 "2016-10-16T23:49:58Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > He already Tweeted that it was done by “Animals representing Hillary Clinton”. Trump still has not figured out that it is when he goes of the rails when most people do notice how dangerously irresponsible he is. ---
**Author:** ![Locrian](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/locrian/32/14146_2.png) [@Locrian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Locrian)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/47 "2016-10-16T23:53:42Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Trump still has not figured out that it is when he goes of the rails when most people do notice how dangerously irresponsible he is. And his supporters fucking love that ignorance. It matches theirs. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/48 "2016-10-16T23:57:57Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > Good for them. Now burn the Trumpy Wumpy golf course down so it’s proved he has no insurance. That’s abhorrent. ---
**Author:** ![bobot](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bobot/32/21622_2.png) [@bobot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bobot)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/49 "2016-10-16T23:58:32Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > …Trumpy Wumpy … Get some sleep. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/50 "2016-10-16T23:58:57Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Trump still has not figured out that it is when he goes of the rails when most people do notice how dangerously irresponsible he is. It seems he’s reacting to the intensity of the adulation of his fans, not the number of tutt-tutts of his detractors. Which is not a behavior to win the election, given the relative numbers of adherents and detractors, but is a behavior consistent with what we know of narcissists. It’s also got some earmarks in common with the behavior of dictators surrounded by yes-men. Even sound judgment is little more than random when working on totally false facts. Couple the usually unsound judgment of dictators with yes-men filling them full of fantasy facts and eventual failure is inevitable. Perhaps Trump really believes he can lead a successful peasants-and-pitchforks revolution into Washington. Perhaps Trump doesn’t know what he wants but he’s not going to stop as long as the crowd is shouting his name. We shall see. Chaos: thy name be Trump. In 2 years his name and reputation may stand not far from Guy Fawkes in Britain. ---
**Author:** ![Euphonious\_Polemic](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/euphonious_polemic/32/3002_2.png) [@Euphonious\_Polemic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Euphonious_Polemic)\ **Post date:** [October 16, 2016, 11:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/51 "2016-10-16T23:58:58Z")
> [@](#): > > Originally Posted by **Jophiel** > He already Tweeted that it was done by “Animals representing Hillary Clinton”. > [@JRDelirious](#): > > While the actual North Carolina Republican Party thanked Secretary Clinton for her concern and thoughts. Glad none were hurt. Trump is pretty much completely divorced from the Republican Party at this point. He has attacked senior Republican leadership, and his now going even farther, and has begun to attack the very system of government and elections in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![skdo23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@skdo23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/skdo23)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/52 "2016-10-17T00:00:37Z")
> [@Locrian](#): > > And his supporters fucking love that ignorance. It matches theirs. Do everyone here at the SDMB a favor, especially yourself, and stay the hell away from this thread. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/53 "2016-10-17T00:06:25Z")
I have to admit, my first thought on hearing about this was “Reichstag”. But I’ll hold my judgment until more is known. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/54 "2016-10-17T00:06:55Z")
For anyone who can’t wrap their heads around what exactly is wrong with this, there’s a laundry list. I hope I don’t leave off something important, but if you see a major omission, please check with me to see if it’s brainfartery rather than malice :). 1. Danger. Arson is punished worse than graffiti because, no matter how sure you are that a building is empty, fire is tricky, and arson can easily kill. 2. Law. There are times when disobeying the law is worth doing, when some exigency exists. But even under the worst-case scenarios for Trump, those exigencies don’t exist now. He’s losing. 3. Ethics. The attack is going to hurt innocent people, e.g., shopowners nearby and their families. Hate on Trump all you want, but that’s not cool. 4. The political system. Anything that encourages politics to be fought through deeds rather than through words is a really bad idea. You don’t want to escalate. As bad as Trump is, escalating into criminal attacks is an awful idea. It seems very likely to me that the next attacks will be against Democrats or other folks on Trump’s enemy list. 5. Sheer partisan politics. This is about the biggest gift you could give to Trump at this point, a genuinely awful thing to focus on that he’s not responsible for. My suspicion as to the culprits is black flag anarchists. Chapel Hill had a run-in with some a few years back. I’ve had the displeasure to know some in my time. This looks to me like the sort of heinous fuckery the worst of them would get up to, and absolutely never back down from. I’d love to be wrong; I’d love for this to be false flag. But I’m guessing it’s black flag anarchists. > [@WillFarnaby](#): > > Yes, according to Clinton, violence against political enemies is only appropriate when they are brown and outside of the United States. Christ almighty, this is as repellent as Locrian’s post. It’s incredibly appropriate to criticize Clinton for her foreign policy measures, e.g., support for the Honduran coup. Doing so here is a shitty thing to do. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/55 "2016-10-17T00:11:04Z")
Do you believe these black flag anarchists to be supporters of Trump, of Clinton, or simply folks stirring the already-boiling pot for the lulz or for their own anti-social ends? Not trying to be deliberately obtuse or snarky; I’m genuinely not sure what you mean. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Pig](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c57346/32.png) [@Little\_Pig](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Pig)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/56 "2016-10-17T00:14:21Z")
Here we go! Don’t forget gentle readers, if Trump does not win, then the election was rigged. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/57 "2016-10-17T00:16:24Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Do you believe these black flag anarchists to be supporters of Trump, of Clinton, or simply folks stirring the already-boiling pot for the lulz or for their own anti-social ends? > > Not trying to be deliberately obtuse or snarky; I’m genuinely not sure what you mean. I suspect that they are stridently anti-fascist and not remotely pro-Clinton, but consider Trump to be a full-on fascist and believe that violence in attacking fascists is appropriate (and if it hurts bourgeois shopkeepers, so much the better). I base this not on recent conversations with or writings from such anarchists, but from more extensive conversations with them in my own youth. ---
**Author:** ![aceplace57](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aceplace57/32/3500_2.png) [@aceplace57](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aceplace57)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/58 "2016-10-17T00:22:38Z")
The level of anger and even rage in this election is quite incredible. The Sanders/Clinton supporters got very heated. Now Trump/Clinton supporters are vandalizing property and even some physical violence. Feelings are on a knife’s edge. I worry about what will happen in the next 6 to 8 weeks. Things may really boil over after the voting and the results come in. It’s not who we are. Elections come and go. We don’t need all this rage. ---
**Author:** ![Count\_Blucher](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c5a1d2/32.png) [@Count\_Blucher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Count_Blucher)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/59 "2016-10-17T00:24:11Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > He already Tweeted that it was done by “Animals representing Hillary Clinton”. How exactly does he ‘know’ this? No one knows this for sure. What witness statements do we have? What camera footage exists? What physical evidence has been gathered? What do lab reports say? Jumping to conclusions before the facts come in is NOT what a president should do. It would be highly unusual for Democratic Activists to resort to fire bombings. Ever. Q: Who would have the most to gain by this? The 538 site shows that NC is 70% Clinton, 29% Trump… so what’s the motive? I thinks its at least as likely that some former Trump supporters, angry that he has no chance of winning there, are venting their frustrations on him at the closest point that they can find. It could also be that some idiots think that they are starting Fort Sumpter 2 as a boost to Trump’s poll numbers. Look, I could make a half dozen rationalized guesses, but that’s all they are at this point: guesses. People need to calm down & let the LEOs do their job. They’re better at this. (Look it up) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [October 17, 2016, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778/60 "2016-10-17T00:27:20Z")
In line with that Cracked article about swastikas being ambiguous, there’s a billboard around here with a picture of a menacing-looking wall (barbed wire, etc.) captioned “Trump: Stay on his good side”. It took me a while to figure out which side that billboard was for. (hint: It’s in a heavily-Hispanic neighborhood) EDIT: > [@](#): > > It would be highly unusual for Democratic Activists to resort to fire bombings. Ever. Q: Who would have the most to gain by this? The 538 site shows that NC is 70% Clinton, 29% Trump… so what’s the motive? > > I thinks its at least as likely that some former Trump supporters, angry that he has no chance of winning there,… A 29% chance is not “no chance”. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-dear-the-violence-has-started/768778.md?page=4)