# Oh, for fuck's sake. Are you gonna ban rocks next? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 18, 2003, 2:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971 "2003-08-18T14:51:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/241 "2003-09-02T08:07:02Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Broomstick \* > \*\*One thing your stats on hanguns death does NOT reveal is how many of those incidents were criminal - and how many were legitimate self-defense or “justified firings” by cops. THAT statistic would be interesting. If 3/4 of handgun deaths were of people directly threatening other people - in other words, the Bad Guy died rather than the potential victim, or the police killed a Bad Guy to stop him doing Bad Things - I’d see that as an argument in _favor_ of personal defense side arms. If the majority are Good Guys being killed by Bad Guys then it becomes an argument against handguns. But until you know that breakdown it’s like saying 50,000 Americans die on the road each year - yes, it looks bad, but it doesn’t tell you whether this is 50,000 irresposible drunken idiots or 50,000 brake failures or 50,000 instances of really really bad weather doing people in. \*\* Well, as the figures I posted were for _homicides_, you know, like, as in “murders”, it kinda makes your argument a bit silly. ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2003, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/242 "2003-09-02T17:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > But do you seriously think the numbers are going to amount to a fraction of a smidgen of a hint of the 600,000 (20,000 a year) killed over the same period by handguns? 20,000 handgun killings per year? This cannot possibly be correct. According to various sources, including the ultra-alarmist site, [bradycampaign.org](http://bradycampaign.org), there were only a few more than 12,000 gun murders **total** (meaning all gun, not only handgun murders) in the U.S. in 1998. This number has remained relatively stable over the past several years and represents a large downturn over the decades previous. Your number likely includes suicides committed by handgun which do not properly belong in this argument. There are many studies showing that suicide rates are unaffected by the availibility of handguns. I’d also like to note those statistics which had everyone so angry and which were claimed to be NRA propaganda, while indeed the NRA has parroted them, they were initially culled from _Australian newspapers._ They were not originally generated by the NRA as has been implied here. A quick search of the NRA site will provide the relevant sources. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 4:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/243 "2003-09-03T04:03:50Z")
I can’t find the site on which I originally found the cite for 20k a year. I suspect you are right that the figure includes suicides, which is clearly a mistake on my part. [This admittedly Brady site](http://www.bradycampaign.org/press/release.asp?Record=289) suggests about 15,500 pa for all gun homicides (278,865 homicides 1979 - 1997). [This, probably more conservative and reliable site](http://www.cdc.gov/nchs/fastats/firearms.htm) suggests about 11,000 gun homicides pa. [This DOJ cite](http://www.ojp.usdoj.gov/bjs/pub/ascii/hvfsdaft.txt) mentions 10,600 **handgun** homicides as an 87-91 average. I haven’t been able to locate many good handgun (as opposed to gun) statistics in the time available. However, Desmo’s cite above for California suggests about 90% of gun homocides are handgun homocides, and [this](http://www.statcan.ca/english/kits/justic/2-7.pdf) and [this](http://www.ocme.unc.edu/annreport/1994/chap4.shtml) suggest it is over and perhaps well over half of all gun deaths. So I apologise for my mistake, but it doesn’t alter the thrust of my argument. Feel free to substitute 5-10,000 wherever I’ve put 20,000 in my previous posts. It’s still orders of magnitude ahead of bombs or power tools. ---
**Author:** ![JRR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ecccb3/32.png) [@JRR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRR)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2003, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/244 "2003-09-03T18:27:01Z")
[flamebait] Dear Australia: We’ll send the residents of our inner city slums over to your country - hell, we’ll ask them to leave their guns here - and see how long it takes for your crime rate to surpass ours. Thanks, America Seriously, the overwhelming majority of murder victims are gang members fighting amongst themselves. If we just wait a bit, the problem might solve itself… [/flamebait] ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2003, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/245 "2003-09-04T00:28:21Z")
Cite? ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 1:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/246 "2003-09-05T13:29:25Z")
And the madness continues. Looks like fireworks might be the next to go… [Aussie blows a hole in his ass](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=209106) ---
**Author:** ![Eolbo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/d07c76/32.png) [@Eolbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eolbo)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/247 "2003-09-05T16:18:39Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*And the madness continues. Looks like fireworks might be the next to go… > > [Aussie blows a hole in his ass](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=209106) \*\* They have been banned for many years in most states. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2003, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/248 "2003-09-05T17:45:12Z")
Dear gawd, you can’t play like Shogun with your samurai swords anymore; you can’t play with firecrackers. What DO you Aussies do for fun? Of course, this does help explain Steve Irwin… ---
**Author:** ![Jervoise](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d2c977/32.png) [@Jervoise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jervoise)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/249 "2003-09-06T04:45:09Z")
Just a point of clarification from the last page. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Princhester \* > \*\*And, as two Australian lawyers (myself and Narrad) have both now stated, is one hunnerd percent unadultered garbage. \*\* I have my degree, but I don’t practice law; I’m not a lawyer (insert sigh of relief here. :D) **PunditLisa** : why, we watch American television, of course! ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Pearse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/richard_pearse/32/13144_2.png) [@Richard\_Pearse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Pearse)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2003, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/250 "2003-09-06T23:47:00Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by PunditLisa \* > \*\*Dear gawd, you can’t play like Shogun with your samurai swords anymore; you can’t play with firecrackers. What DO you Aussies do for fun? > > Of course, this does help explain Steve Irwin… \*\* They swim **PunditLisa** , they swim. ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 10:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/251 "2003-09-07T10:02:42Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Narrad \* > \*\*Just a point of clarification from the last page.I have my degree, but I don’t practice law; I’m not a lawyer (insert sigh of relief here. :D) > \*\* Nope, you’ve got your degree, you’re a lawyer, you can’t run and you can’t hide. Now get up here and face the rotten tomatoes like a man, you coward! [sub]Don’t leave me here all alone. Please?[/sub] ---
**Author:** ![calm\_kiwi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/9fc348/32.png) [@calm\_kiwi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/calm_kiwi)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/252 "2003-09-07T13:52:15Z")
Why does bearing the right to arms equate to freedom? There are many places in the world who are just as "free"as the US but they don’t consider guns or the right to bear them as part of the criteria. Personally I am glad I live in a country where gun ownership is not seen as the litmus test for freedom. ---
**Author:** ![PunditLisa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/4af34b/32.png) [@PunditLisa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PunditLisa)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/253 "2003-09-07T20:55:46Z")
> [@](#): > > There are many places in the world who are just as "free"as the US but they don’t consider guns or the right to bear them as part of the criteria. Ahh, but can you legally wield samurai swords? _That’s_ the question. ---
**Author:** ![SenorBeef](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/senorbeef/32/2220_2.png) [@SenorBeef](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SenorBeef)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 11:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/254 "2003-09-08T11:44:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by calm kiwi \* > \*\*Why does bearing the right to arms equate to freedom? There are many places in the world who are just as "free"as the US but they don’t consider guns or the right to bear them as part of the criteria. > Personally I am glad I live in a country where gun ownership is not seen as the litmus test for freedom. \*\* Eh… how free can you be when the state, the most historically oppressive force, in general, in human history, has a monopoly on arms and force? ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 11:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/255 "2003-09-08T11:51:19Z")
And pray tell, Senor Beef? What country would you hold up as a model of freedom then, in the abscence of an “oppressive state”? ---
**Author:** ![Princhester](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/3e96dc/32.png) [@Princhester](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Princhester)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/256 "2003-09-08T12:01:20Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*Eh… how free can you be when the state, the most historically oppressive force, in general, in human history, has a monopoly on arms and force? \*\* Straw man. The answer to your question is: pretty much as free as in a country where the state has an overwhelming strength in arms and force. Such as in the United States. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/257 "2003-09-08T12:01:23Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by SenorBeef \* > \*\*Eh… how free can you be when the state, the most historically oppressive force, in general, in human history, has a monopoly on arms and force? \*\* Use of armed force against your legitimate government is generally regarded as either “regular” type crime or “terrorist” type crime. Some fuckwit in the U.S. with a handgun isn’t a “freedom fighter”, he’s just a plain old regular fuckwit with a handgun. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![UncleBeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/977dab/32.png) [@UncleBeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UncleBeer)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2003, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/258 "2003-09-08T19:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Some fuckwit in the U.S. with a handgun isn’t a “freedom fighter”, he’s just a plain old regular fuckwit with a handgun. Define _fuckwit_. ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/259 "2003-09-09T02:18:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Desmostylus \* > **Use of armed force against your legitimate government is generally regarded as either “regular” type crime or “terrorist” type crime.** So during the United States’ War of Independence, were the militia members and minutemen “regular” criminals or “terrorists”? ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [September 9, 2003, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971/260 "2003-09-09T02:30:15Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by calm kiwi \* > \*\*Why does bearing the right to arms equate to freedom? \*\* It doesn’t. At least there’s more to it than simply “bearing arms.” First of all, when we talk about arms we’re talking about preserving and defending _liberty_, not freedom. (There _is_ a difference. Note that PH did _not_ say, “Give me freedom or give me death.” It is possible to have freedom, but not liberty.) Secondly, “bearing arms” is only half the equation; you must also have the courage to use them. The latter is much more difficult to acquire. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-for-fucks-sake-are-you-gonna-ban-rocks-next/195971.md?page=14)