# Oh good Lord!!!! Not Nipples!!!!!! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 1, 2011, 3:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662 "2011-12-01T03:26:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/161 "2011-12-06T01:26:16Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > In all honesty, do you have Asperger’s? I am really curious what you mean by this. Do you see some sort of equivalence between Asperger’s and sexual deviance? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/162 "2011-12-06T01:33:57Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > And my repeated point is that the general consensus is that it’s perfectly fine to think those things. It’s ‘creepy’ to say or do them. > > Again it was what **Fear Itself** POSTED. Had he kept his thoughts to himself nobody would have objected. I understand your point and acknowledged it - a valid point that could be correct with respect to the SDMB (although it may not really be correct, we would need to see what the majority thought). But you’ve just quoted my response to others that disagreed with my contention that the poll was the tip of the iceberg for most male brains. They seemed to be implying that the “creepy” factor was not due to the fact that it was posted on SDMB, but rather that there is some inherent “creepiness” to that type of thinking regardless. There appear to be two different reasons being supplied for the term “creepy”. ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/163 "2011-12-06T01:35:00Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > No, it didn’t shed any light on the subject at all. > > Actually it confused the issue for me because: > > 1. I didn’t know you were joking (I didn’t think you thought he was a serial killer, but I did think you thought the poll was on the same continuum as the mindset of the character from that movie which I think is completely ridiculous) > 2. It still doesn’t offer any insight as to why someone would find it creepy. I’ve reread this a couple of times, and it still looks to me like you’re saying you didn’t get why anyone would find the poll creepy even when you thought I was saying I believed it to be the work of someone with more-or-less the mind of a serial killer. Is this correct? Because if you can’t get why something that extreme might strike someone as creepy then I doubt it’s within my power to explain how something far less horrific might seem creepy. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/164 "2011-12-06T01:37:17Z")
**Fear Itself** , Why do you think he’s sexually deviant? I’m just curious as to his highly detailed replies to certain points combined with his apparent inability to understand the concept of behavioural norms, both of which are typical of Asperger’s syndrome. As I have a much beloved relative who’s an Aspie I can probably tailor answers better if that’s the case. Pretty nasty conclusion you jumped to there. Was it another one of your ‘jokes’? I see you’ve changed it in edit, too much even for you? ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/165 "2011-12-06T01:48:17Z")
> [@Lamia](#): > > I’ve reread this a couple of times, and it still looks to me like you’re saying you didn’t get why anyone would find the poll creepy even when you thought I was saying I believed it to be the work of someone with more-or-less the mind of a serial killer. Is this correct? Because if you can’t get why something that extreme might strike someone as creepy then I doubt it’s within my power to explain how something far less horrific might seem creepy. 1. Yes, I understand how the serial killer in the movie is creepy 2. No, I don’t understand how that provides any insight into a poll on the SDMB and people’s reaction to it. What is the similarity? One guy wants to be a girl and wear female skin and another is some words on the screen that you can ignore or click a button - am I missing something? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/166 "2011-12-06T02:03:02Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > **Fear Itself** , Why do you think he’s sexually deviant? I don’t. Do you? Why did you bring up Asperger’s in the first place? ---
**Author:** ![Lamia](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/8e7dd6/32.png) [@Lamia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lamia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/167 "2011-12-06T02:05:48Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > 1. Yes, I understand how the serial killer in the movie is creepy > 2. No, I don’t understand how that provides any insight into a poll on the SDMB and people’s reaction to it. What is the similarity? One guy wants to be a girl and wear female skin and another is some words on the screen that you can ignore or click a button - am I missing something? This does not actually answer the question I asked, but I think it is all the answer I need. Yes, you’re missing quite a lot, but I do not believe I have the ability to explain it to you. I’m sorry. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/168 "2011-12-06T02:15:40Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > In all honesty, do you have Asperger’s? I match very few of the symptoms for Aspergers, so this is most likely a no. > [@](#): > > I’m just curious as to his highly detailed replies to certain points combined with his apparent inability to understand the concept of behavioural norms, Is there something that gives you the impression I don’t understand the concept of behavioral norms? Something to consider: do you think that you and each of the other poster’s would all agree with which other threads were appropriate also? My bet is that if we took a poll of various threads you would have a distribution of opinion’s regarding what is appropriate and what isn’t, for the SDMB. And finally, my primary disagreement was not whether the thread was appropriate for the SDMB, but whether it was fair to call it “creepy”. To me, that word represents a level of judging of an individual’s sexuality that I don’t think would remain standing if everyone’s sexuality were exposed for the world to see. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 2:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/169 "2011-12-06T02:53:21Z")
I didn’t mean to upset you, it was a genuine question based on the observations I’ve already explained. My family member has a very strong disconnect between theory and reality - he cannot empathise enough with people to see how (perhaps) an economic decision to discontinue overtime payments could affect a real family’s ability to pay bills. The behavioural norms issue comes up because you keep returning to what \*you \*think, and what you believe other men think, without regard to how most people would expect men to \*behave \*in a social setting. This has been explained to you repeatedly, by both men and women and yet you still go back to what _you think._ ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/170 "2011-12-06T03:22:36Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > How do you know? You don’t know what is going on inside his head and you have no idea what is going on inside your head that would appear creepy in a poll unless you actually put it out there. > > Unless the only thoughts you ever have about women are strictly missionary position with the lights off - I guarantee you there are things you’ve thought about that women would label as “creepy”. > > And my point is that the label “creepy” is primarily due to an understimation of what’s going on inside the male brain. You keep saying this as though you think you’re proving a point, and it keeps not being a sensible response. If you think I’m naive about how men think about sex, well, I’m not. > [@](#): > > I’ve never heard anyone describe his preference in this level of detail either. But so what? Human conversation doesn’t lend itself to a detailed poll. Because a normal guy might think, “I wonder what Vanessa’s boobs look like,” not “I wonder what the average nipple color of a self-selecting sample of women whom I’ve never met and probably, on average, wouldn’t be attracted to is”. I will concede that you are apparently also interested in this subject but I don’t post comparable polls not out of inhibition but because this sort of obsessive, cataloguey fascination with only one small part of the anatomy is not the norm in men, no matter what you may think. > [@](#): > > I guarantee you that you have attributes of your sexual thoughts that I don’t have at all, and vice versa. Even if something is relatively rare (say 10%) - is that “creepy”? I’m sure I do. And if I started talking about them with you, depending on the context, it might well come across as creepy. Either way, you’re now contradicting yourself. Earlier you were saying that 99% of men think the way he does, which we don’t. > [@](#): > > Just because something is different from your own experiences, how does that rise to the level of “creepy”? There must be more than just “different”, right? Well, as a bunch of other people have tried to explain to you, it’s the obsessive level of detail – again, not part of my experience of sexual desire at all – combined with the fact of asking a bunch of strangers. You keep trying to sort of “prove” that it’s not creepy, and that everyone else is naive for not recognizing that it’s perfectly ordinary. It’s not perfectly ordinary, and your attempts to rationalize away ordinary and normal reactions are probably what triggered someone to ask you if you have Aspberger’s Syndrome, since at least in the popular conception of it, chalking up an inability to understand and accommodate social cues as “rationality” is a hallmark of it. (I’m not sure if that’s medically valid or not.) > [@](#): > > My point isn’t that most men would come up with this exact poll, but rather the following points: > > 1. Visually males track far more information that what is contained in the poll > 2. Males think about sex, a lot > 3. Men like lots of variety > 4. Most men I know have much “cruder” thoughts then this poll And yet none of that has anything to do with why so many people found it creepy; in fact, these are stereotypes that are so old that it seems absolutely odd that you think they represent insights to share with the rest of us. > [@](#): > > Add these together and what you get is, from the male perspective a big “whatever”, and if the female perspective is “creepy” then I think that is primarily because they aren’t along for the daily ride inside a male’s brain. Really, you are probably in the absolute worst position to try to understand male sexuality except for (maybe) a lesbian, since you probably only have the experiences of one man to draw from. I don’t know how you could imagine that heterosexual women are naive about it, since most of them are likely to have a sample size of more than one to draw from and the advantage of being able to observe more objectively since it’s not happening in their heads. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/171 "2011-12-06T03:28:21Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > Well, as a bunch of other people have tried to explain to you, it’s the obsessive level of detail – again, not part of my experience of sexual desire at all – combined with the fact of asking a bunch of strangers. You really are new here. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/172 "2011-12-06T03:29:21Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > I didn’t mean to upset you, You didn’t upset me at all, but I’m curious why you thought you did (I assume because tone doesn’t come through text and maybe you inferred a tone that wasn’t there, possibly?). > [@](#): > > it was a genuine question based on the observations I’ve already explained. My family member has a very strong disconnect between theory and reality - he cannot empathise enough with people to see how (perhaps) an economic decision to discontinue overtime payments could affect a real family’s ability to pay bills. Empathy is actually one of the attributes where I tend to be on the opposite end of the spectrum. (You may disagree based on the argumentative nature of my posts in this thread, but you’ll have to trust me on this one). > [@](#): > > The behavioural norms issue comes up because you keep returning to what \*you \*think, and what you believe other men think, without regard to how most people would expect men to \*behave \*in a social setting. > > This has been explained to you repeatedly, by both men and women and yet you still go back to what _you think._ I don’t think you are reading closely enough. The social norms issue regarding the thread possibly crossing the boundaries of “normal” for the SDMB has long ago been acknowledged as a valid possibility. However there are 2 complicating factors: 1. Many examples of threads that appear similar or worse are classified as ok by the people that object to this one (for example, a thread in which posters post naked pictures of themselves is considered within the norms). What is your opinion - is this type of thread within the “norm”? 2. The use of the term “creepy”. Possibly anything that crosses the social boundaries related to sex is considered “creepy”, but that was not the impression given by many of the posters. They implied this goes beyond just crossing social boundaries and into abnormal thought patterns. And this is where I bring up my experiences with my own brain and most of the other males I have ever known (as well as this thing called the “internet” which proves in living color the wild variety of sexual interest human’s have). ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/173 "2011-12-06T03:33:02Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You really are new here. And yet you’re the one who managed to creep so many people out that your poll didn’t get serious responses. Seems I have a better lay of the land than you. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/174 "2011-12-06T03:35:15Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > And yet you’re the one who managed to creep so many people out that your poll didn’t get serious responses. You have no way of knowing that. ---
**Author:** ![mister\_nyx](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/df705f/32.png) [@mister\_nyx](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mister_nyx)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/175 "2011-12-06T03:37:00Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > You have no way of knowing that. Glancing through the responses in that thread and this one, it is a pretty safe bet. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/176 "2011-12-06T03:59:59Z")
> [@mister\_nyx](#): > > You keep saying this as though you think you’re proving a point, and it keeps not being a sensible response. If you think I’m naive about how men think about sex, well, I’m not. I don’t think I’m “proving” anything. And at the same time, it could very well be a “reasonable” response. How do you know it’s not? Neither of us are the women responding. > [@](#): > > Because a normal guy might think, “I wonder what Vanessa’s boobs look like,” not “I wonder what the average nipple color of a self-selecting sample of women whom I’ve never met and probably, on average, wouldn’t be attracted to is”. Maybe, maybe not. I think the internet disproves your claim, or at least pushes the boundary of “normal” much further out. > [@](#): > > I will concede that you are apparently also interested in this subject but I don’t post comparable polls not out of inhibition but because this sort of obsessive, cataloguey fascination with only one small part of the anatomy is not the norm in men, no matter what you may think. I thought the poll was mildly amusing. Regarding “interested in this subject”: I am very interested in the subject of how people think, the assumptions they make, how emotions are intertwined with our thought processes, the fact that our brains are non-rational pattern matching devices (to the extreme) but we couple that with learned socialization and the ability to override some of that with logic - I enjoy this subject a lot. Regarding the “not the norm in men” (as previously stated): My point is not that most men would create this poll - my point is that, when looking at the wide variety of sexual thoughts of men - this poll is tame and well within the “norms”. ---
**Author:** ![maggenpye](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecc23a/32.png) [@maggenpye](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/maggenpye)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/177 "2011-12-06T04:19:01Z")
> [@RaftPeople](#): > > You didn’t upset me at all, but I’m curious why you thought you did (I assume because tone doesn’t come through text and maybe you inferred a tone that wasn’t there, possibly?). > > Empathy is actually one of the attributes where I tend to be on the opposite end of the spectrum. (You may disagree based on the argumentative nature of my posts in this thread, but you’ll have to trust me on this one). > > I don’t think you are reading closely enough. The social norms issue regarding the thread possibly crossing the boundaries of “normal” for the SDMB has long ago been acknowledged as a valid possibility. > > However there are 2 complicating factors: > > 1. Many examples of threads that appear similar or worse are classified as ok by the people that object to this one (for example, a thread in which posters post naked pictures of themselves is considered within the norms). What is your opinion - is this type of thread within the “norm”? > > 2. The use of the term “creepy”. Possibly anything that crosses the social boundaries related to sex is considered “creepy”, but that was not the impression given by many of the posters. They implied this goes beyond just crossing social boundaries and into abnormal thought patterns. And this is where I bring up my experiences with my own brain and most of the other males I have ever known (as well as this thing called the “internet” which proves in living color the wild variety of sexual interest human’s have). I thought it was \*possible \*you may be upset because of the multiple responses to that comment, but on review this is another trait of yours. It’s also considered a courtesy to apologise if there _may have been_ hurt caused. It was not intended, I’m content that it doesn’t matter to you. Every thread on this board is its own poll on acceptability, the results are the posts it contains. The fact that the nipple poll didn’t get the same kind of response as the naked pics thread or the number of partners thread, or the period thread _is_ the proof that it crossed a boundary. We’ve tried to analyze why and all we can come up with is that the tone and the obsessive detail put it outside the acceptable range of ‘normal’. You may not agree with that, but it \*got \*a different response. Yes, you’ve been argumentative in this thread, and you’ve been called on it before. That does affect how other posters respond to you, we have no body language or voice cues to help assess your tone. Another reason why I initially treated the poll as a fallen flat joke. Again you’re back to what ‘men think’ is the standard by how they should be judged. We keep saying that it was the \*act \*of posting the poll, not the \*thought \*of nipples that is the issue. ETA : This is a public forum and while the boundaries are different (see above : responses validating acceptability) there is still an expectation of acceptable public behaviour (rule 1 : Don’t Be A Jerk) ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 4:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/178 "2011-12-06T04:29:32Z")
> [@maggenpye](#): > > Every thread on this board is its own poll on acceptability, the results are the posts it contains. Where did you get this notion? 39 people posted in the thread, yet 116 voted in the poll. Don’t you think those who voted, yet were not moved to comment might have a different opinion from those who were so offended, they just had to post? As has been pointed out to you many times, the comments are a self-selected sample. They are entitled to their opinions, but that does not make them representative of everyone who viewed the poll. ---
**Author:** ![RaftPeople](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/6f9a4e/32.png) [@RaftPeople](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RaftPeople)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/179 "2011-12-06T05:12:22Z")
I started a poll in IMHO so we can beat this horse even further into the ground. > **[SDMB "Norms" - Revised](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=633878)** > > I screwed up first thread. SDMB “Norms” This thread http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=632937&highlight=nipples \[/quote\] generated some discussion about whether and why the poll was outside the norms of the SDMB (and... ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2011, 5:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662/180 "2011-12-06T05:41:28Z")
FWIW, my “Ed Gein” comment was a joke as well. Just in case anyone seriously thinks I was accusing **Fear Itself** of wanting to create a nipple belt. (At least I hope he doesn’t) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-good-lord-not-nipples/604662.md?page=10)