# Oh goodie. Now we have the political sexist take on who gets to be called "Dr" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 14, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973 "2020-12-14T00:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 12
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/223 "2020-12-19T16:54:12Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > Would someone who holds an MD but is not qualified to practise medicine be entitled to be called “Doctor”? Why or why not? I would think so; they hold a doctorate. I have a friend who dropped out mid-residency and is now a stay-at-home parent, who certainly doesn’t use it. Not that my practicing physician friends/relatives use it outside of a work setting. But we do couple the title with the degree, so it’s not inaccurate to use it. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/224 "2020-12-19T18:44:12Z")
I have had many fine and highly competent EdD colleagues. ---
**Author:** ![alphaboi867](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alphaboi867/32/3898_2.png) [@alphaboi867](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/alphaboi867)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/225 "2020-12-19T21:41:26Z")
> [@Arcite](#): > > An MD actually is a terminal degree in medicine because there is no such thing as a Ph.D. in medicine. I believe in the UK & Commonwealth (including Canada) it’s possible for medical practitioners to get a Master of Surgery degree after their medical degree (which is an MBBS except in Canada where it’s an MD). ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/226 "2020-12-19T22:02:02Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > Yes, but that earlier thread focused mainly on Ph.D.s being called “Doctor.” I’m interested in whether anyone can refute or support Arcite’s claim that an Ed.D. degree, specifically, is “one of the most Mickey Mouse degrees out there.” There are some real Mickey Mouse Ed.D programs out there. There are also some very rigorous ones. There is probably a higher % of Mickey Mouse ones than in some disciplines, but that doesn’t mean the degree is automatically worthless. But in terms of what to call people, I don’t think an individual needs to cross check the prestige of their program against a list before picking an honorific. If you have a doctorate, you’re welcome to use it, especially in situations where other people are using theirs, be that Mr. Or Mrs. Or President. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 19, 2020, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/227 "2020-12-19T23:18:52Z")
Lawyers (at least in the USA) get J.D.s. Which, like MD, is a terminal degree in a practical skill, not in research, and typically has no dissertation requirement. Although AIUI JD involves developing skill in performing research, albeit of a highly specific nature much more than does MD. Should they be addressed as “Doctor?” If a lawyer styled themselves as “Dr. Jones” would that be pretentious twittery? ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/228 "2020-12-20T00:49:26Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > If a lawyer styled themselves as “Dr. Jones” would that be pretentious twittery? Yes. 🧐 ---
**Author:** ![Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/elmer_j.fudd/32/1211_2.png) [@Elmer\_J.Fudd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Elmer_J.Fudd)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 12:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/229 "2020-12-20T00:52:50Z")
But an archeologist/adventurer on the other hand… ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/230 "2020-12-20T00:54:09Z")
As Heinlein commented in _Starship Troopers_ : “No-one ever saluted a third lieutenant except in bad light.” Same applies to Dr Jones, JD. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/231 "2020-12-20T01:48:34Z")
But we don’t know what type of degree Indy had, other than his specialisations in plunder and wrecking. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/232 "2020-12-20T02:37:07Z")
Don’t forget statutory rape and inappropriate relationships between faculty and students. > **Marion:** I was a child. I was in love. It was wrong and you knew it! > **Indiana:** You knew what you were doing. > Roughly 10 years before Raiders, Marion had a fling with a much older Indiana. The exact size of the age gap is up for debate (actress Karen Allen was 30 when she played Marion the first time, while Harrison Ford was 39), but all evidence indicates that good ol’ Indy is most likely a statutory rapist. During the original Raiders of the Lost Ark story meetings, **George Lucas proposed that Indy “could have known this little girl when she was just a kid. Had an affair with her when she was _11_.” After Steven Spielberg protested, Lucas decided that “15 is right on the edge… _Once she’s 16 or 17, it’s not interesting anymore_.”** Read More: [The Most Terrible Things Indiana Jones Has Ever Done](https://www.looper.com/78616/terrible-things-indiana-jones-ever-done/?utm_campaign=clip) > The script states that Marion’s age in _Raiders_ is 25 years old, making her around 15 at the time of the affair with a 27-year-old Indy.[[9]] ([Marion Ravenwood | Indiana Jones Wiki | Fandom](https://indianajones.fandom.com/wiki/Marion_Ravenwood#cite_note-9)) ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 3:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/233 "2020-12-20T15:04:57Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > > [@LSLGuy](#): > > > > If a lawyer styled themselves as “Dr. Jones” would that be pretentious twittery? > > Yes. 🧐 > [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > As Heinlein commented in _Starship Troopers_ : “No-one ever saluted a third lieutenant except in bad light.” Same applies to Dr Jones, JD. Thank you for confirming what I already suspected / knew. Which I set out as a bit of a rhetorical trap for the thread. Now for the long-winded disquisition … In the general public, we call physicians “Doctor” as their occupational title, not exactly their academic title. Which for largely historical reasons in our increasingly egalitarian (more like increasingly anti-elite, but that’s a digression) age we’ve carried over calling physicians “Doctor” in social settings. My occupational title is “Captain”. Except as a joke among a bunch of us getting together for a beer on a day off, nobody but nobody would ever expect to be called that outside of the work context. And anyone who wanted to be called that off-duty would be an eyeroll-worthy jerkwad. Lawyers also have various occupational titles: Counselor, Barrister, Esquire, etc. But like “Captain”, it’s not one used outside of work contexts. Nor is “Doctor”, although JD lawyers have, IMO, the same _academic_ claim to the title as do MD physicians. So finally we get to PhDs. They have an academic title of “Doctor”. If they work in academics it’s also their occupational title, along perhaps with various flavors of “Professor”. IMO it’s 100% appropriate to refer to them as “Professor” or “Doctor” in the work setting. Which includes anyone anywhere discussing their written works which are a natural part of their duties. Also IMO, “Mister”, “Missus”, and “Mizz” are not titles; they’re the default label for an adult in the absence of a title. So IMO it’s as inappropriate & confusing to refer to an academic PhD as “Doctor” outside the academy as it is to refer to a lawyer as “Doctor” or me as “Captain” outside the work setting. My point is not sour grapes that I personally don’t rate an off-duty title. I have a Masters and could certainly make getting a PhD a project for my later years. I’m just a handy example of how silly it gets if occupational titles are carried into off-duty time. The PhDs who stay in academics have a lot of social life interaction with other academics. In that world, and among one another, everyone’s a “Doctor”, and quite reasonably so. At the grocery store? Not so much IMO. The PhDs in the thread who work(ed) doing highly advanced stuff in their degree area? Of course they’re “Doctor” at work, and deservedly so. At the grocery store? Not so much IMO. The WSJ article is of course a sexist political hatchet job written by a jerk using any available handle to belittle Jill Biden. He’d have complained about her hair if he didn’t have anything “better” to complain about. But I for one don’t see it as sensible for the public to start calling PhDs “Doctor” in social settings. It’s going against the tide of our increasingly informal culture. Among my residents here I have a retired history professor who insists on being called “Doctor”. He’s a pretentious twit. I have a retired chemistry professor who has no interest in being called “Doctor”. He’s stuffy, but no twit. There is a difference. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/234 "2020-12-20T15:18:11Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Lawyers also have various occupational titles: Counselor, Barrister, Esquire, etc. Some comments: “Counsellor” (or in Commonwealth influenced countries, “Counsel”) isn’t really an occupational title, but a job description, for someone who gives legal advice. It’s also used by judges as a handy non-gendered term: “Now, counsel, what is your availability for the next hearing in this matter?” sort of thing. I’d say it’s functional, and certainly not used outside the office / courtroom. YMMV, of course, as usage in different jurisdictions will vary. “Barrister” isn’t an occupational title, but my actual job description. I’m a barrister and solicitor; says so right in my membership certificate from the Law Society. “Esquire” - not used in Canada. At least, I’ve never seen it, except in some old court decisions where counsel is listed. ---
**Author:** ![lawton11](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/71c47a/32.png) [@lawton11](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lawton11)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 3:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/235 "2020-12-20T15:22:39Z")
Every Medical doctor that I know seems to want to be called doctor “so and so” both in the office and when I see them outside their office. Not one of them has ever told me otherwise. If someone is a personal friend, then it may be different. In school we always called our instructors Doctor if they had a Phd. Outside of class, the same applied as above. Attorneys, who are a Doctor of Jurisprudence seem not to go by the title in any setting. Many pastors go by the title Doctor, like MLK. Kings and Queens go by His Majesty or Her Majesty. Presidents, Vice-Presidents, Senators, and many other government officials of federal, state and local governments, both current and past are called by their title. Retired military are often called General. I do not understand the issue. If someone has achieved the title honestly, what is the objection ? In some schools, even at the grammar school level, students are called Mr. or Miss “so and so”. If tradition requires the title to be used, or we know that the person that we are addressing prefers it , why not use the title ? It seems to me that we have an example of people who object to the use of titles from the standpoint of jealousy, simple disrespect or a hatred for anything they do not have. A colossal waste of time as I see it. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/236 "2020-12-20T18:01:29Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > Also IMO, “Mister”, “Missus”, and “Mizz” are not titles; they’re the default label for an adult in the absence of a title. This makes no sense. Of course they’re titles. They’re titles for people who don’t have a “better” title. > [@LSLGuy](#): > > The PhDs in the thread who work(ed) doing highly advanced stuff in their degree area? Of course they’re “Doctor” at work, and deservedly so. At the grocery store? Not so much IMO. These things are context-dependent. There are cultures and societies in which it would be considered rude _not_ to address you as “captain,” even outside of your workplace. In my parents’ circles, everyone with a medical degree or a Ph.D. were addressed as “doctor,” even in casual social settings. You had to achieve a certain level of formality before using someone’s given name was appropriate. Even then, someone you might address by given name in private, you might address as “Doctor FamilyName” when in the company of others. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/237 "2020-12-20T18:37:27Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > The PhDs who stay in academics have a lot of social life interaction with other academics. In that world, and among one another, everyone’s a “Doctor”, and quite reasonably so. At the grocery store? Not so much IMO. I’m not entirely clear if you’re arguing that nobody should be called doctor outside of a professional setting, or that only people who work in medicine should be called doctor outside of a professional setting. If it’s the latter, why the special title dispensation for medical doctors? ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/238 "2020-12-20T18:50:17Z")
I’m suggesting that physicians are almost universally called “Doctor” outside of work. And almost nobody else with doctorate-level degrees are so called. Both of those things are simply arbitrary historical habit with no particular logic behind them. Whether I like this or not, this is how I see society operating today. If that situation is to change (and I don’t personally care whether it does or does not) it seems to me to make more sense to drop the social honorific for physicians than to expand the use of social honorifics to potentially vast numbers of others. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/239 "2020-12-20T19:05:53Z")
Sure, in casual settings, one wouldn’t refer to Jill Biden as “Dr. Biden”. One would refer to her as “Jill”. But neither I nor that WSJ hack nor (I’m guessing) anyone on this message board knows her in casual settings. The only interaction any of us will ever have with her will be formalized, and her formal mode of address is “Dr. Biden”. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/240 "2020-12-20T21:57:09Z")
Indeed. Her correct title is "Dr. ". “Mrs. Biden” is incorrect for that reason. There are many contexts in which one might appropriately refer to her as “Jill” or even “Jill Biden” but if the context requires use of a title, it will be “Dr. Biden” or “Dr. Jill Biden”. The suggestion that she’s “Dr. Biden” in some circumstances and “Mrs. Biden” in others is utterly ridiculous. The only reason to deliberately use “Mrs. Biden” is to belittle her and diminish her achievements. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/241 "2020-12-20T22:08:54Z")
I had a lovely college reunion Zoom the other day. We spent much of it discussing Dr. Biden’s dissertation. ---
**Author:** ![k9bfriender](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/k9bfriender/32/3283_2.png) [@k9bfriender](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/k9bfriender)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2020, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/242 "2020-12-20T22:43:38Z")
> [@LSLGuy](#): > > But I for one don’t see it as sensible for the public to start calling PhDs “Doctor” in social settings. It’s going against the tide of our increasingly informal culture. We are not talking about social settings, we are specifically talking about formal address and how she would be referred to in the news. If you saved an aircraft from a critical situation, would you be referred to in the news as Mr. Guy, or Captain Guy? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=11) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=13)