# Oh goodie. Now we have the political sexist take on who gets to be called "Dr" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 14, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973 "2020-12-14T00:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![HMS\_Irruncible](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hms_irruncible/32/7394_2.png) [@HMS\_Irruncible](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/HMS_Irruncible)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/41 "2020-12-14T13:16:08Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > Usually that’s the end of it. Once or twice however, after being corrected, the person, who should have known better, said something along the lines of, “Ooh doctor, can you give me a diagnosis? Christ, people are just… so… prone to make me violate board rules. ---
**Author:** ![hogarth](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hogarth/32/1773_2.png) [@hogarth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hogarth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 1:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/42 "2020-12-14T13:33:46Z")
> [@bob\_2](#): > > His wife was German and in Germany he was referred to formally as Herr Doctor Doctor. I’ve always thought that the company name **Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG** (i.e., Honorary Doctor of Engineering F. Porsche Inc.) is faintly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![F.U.Shakespeare](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/aca169/32.png) [@F.U.Shakespeare](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/F.U.Shakespeare)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 1:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/43 "2020-12-14T13:34:13Z")
How to address college professors can vary with era and setting. I grew up in a town with a large landgrant university. Most people addressed the professors as “doctor” if they had a doctorate, “professor” if they didn’t. Not all the professors had doctorates, so that was a more prestigious title. When I went to college a few decades later, doctorates were the norm with the professors, but I continued that convention I’d learned. (The only instructors we called “Mr.” or “Ms.” were grad students.) Years later, I had a boss who had a Ph.D. in engineering. He considered “professor” a more prestigious title, and would address a professor with a Ph.D. as “professor”. ---
**Author:** ![Ruken](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f475e1/32.png) [@Ruken](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ruken)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 1:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/44 "2020-12-14T13:48:09Z")
> [@Northern\_Piper](#): > > But, what else should one expect from the _Wall Street Journal_ , that bastion of enlightened thought? > [@What\_Exit](#): > > I’m surprised the WSJ printed it though. How low have their standards dropped since Murdoch bought them? Their op-eds have always had a broader and lower range of quality than their reporting IMO. But this one is way off the deep end. Usually the WSJ comments section is a toxic morass. But when I glanced at it for this one the comments were mostly along the lines of your comments. Personally, I find titles and honorifics supremely dumb, especially when used in conversation. But I have noticed (very nonscientifically and with low N) a trend for people to use Dr. and Prof. Lastname for men, and Mrs. or Firstname with women. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/45 "2020-12-14T14:16:10Z")
I do adjunct teaching at a local liberal arts college. I have a master’s, no doctorate. The standard on campus is for students to use Dr. or Professor Lastname in their interactions with faculty. In my department and a few others, however, it’s pretty common for professors to invite students to call them by their first names. So I do that too. Some take me up on it, some don’t. Leading to this. Two papers, collected the same day from two students sitting next to each other. The first began: Student Name Date Course Dr. Unwashed The second: Student Name Date Course Ulf As for the OP–this guy sounds quite rude, condescending, and ridiculous. Gotta say I never heard of him, though. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/46 "2020-12-14T14:24:59Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > I would argue that reporting on her in this context still counts as a professional setting. Any situation where you’d refer to President-elect Biden, it seems appropriate to refer to his wife as Dr (or the appropriate after titles). You’re using formal titles, after all. I hadn’t considered it that way. That makes sense. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/47 "2020-12-14T14:37:19Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Personally if I had my way, only medical professionals would be called “Doctor” or “Dr.”. > > BUT since that train has left the station- he is pretty much wrong, wrong wrong. I think you’ve missed the train completely. The term “doctor” refers to a person who has an advanced degree from a university. That is the original usage and is always correct. (Of course, lording over others with your titles and honors may not be always be polite.) A medical practitioner is a “physician”, “surgeon”, “midwife”, “barber”, “dentist”, etc. It was only when medical practitioners started getting advanced degrees that they would also use the term “doctor”. Thinking that “doctor” refers only to a medical doctor is an error in a formal setting even if it’s acceptable colloquial usage in some dialects. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/48 "2020-12-14T14:50:15Z")
Also, don’t call a British surgeon ‘Dr’ 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 2:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/49 "2020-12-14T14:53:19Z")
The WSJ doubles down. I didn’t realize they wouldn’t let me see the article twice … so no quotes. But among other things this WSJ editor says that it was fine to call Dr. Biden kiddo in that piece because her husband sometimes does. Other than that it’s just the trite, old, conservative “We’re the real victims! Free speech!”-bullshit. > **[Opinion | The Biden Team Strikes Back](https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-biden-team-strikes-back-11607900812)** > > Its strategists promote an identity politics campaign against an op-ed on Jill Biden’s use of ‘Dr.’ ---
**Author:** ![Dewey\_Finn](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dewey_finn/32/4222_2.png) [@Dewey\_Finn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dewey_Finn)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/50 "2020-12-14T15:06:59Z")
Note in that piece, they referred to her as “Mrs. Biden”. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/51 "2020-12-14T15:08:03Z")
Oh this made me so angry yesterday. I was wishing I subscribed to the wsj just so I could cancel it! I don’t like it when I feel like punching someone in the face, but that’s how I felt about Joseph Epstein. I’m just telling myself to “Be Better, Don’t be an Epstein.” ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/52 "2020-12-14T15:10:36Z")
I recall when somebody–James Kilpatrick maybe?–got very exercised about Geraldine Ferraro back in 1984 when she was running for VP. He said long and loud that she should be only referred to as “Mrs. Zaccaro,” never “Mrs. Ferraro,” because Zaccaro was her husband’s name. I was in my early twenties and I found it extremely bizarre, and now here we are with this. Apparently old white guys who “stand on ceremony” never die… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/53 "2020-12-14T15:23:34Z")
On use of “Dr.” in newspapers—most mainstream American newspapers follow Associated Press style, which would call for “Jane Doe” on first reference and “Doe” thereafter, unless the article referenced multiple members of the Doe family and some accommodation was require to avoid ambiguity. Some newspapers, notably The New York Times, avoid the bare family name reference, and insist on some kind of title, like “Ms. Doe” or “Dr. Doe” after the first reference with full name. I think this is a bad idea for multiple reasons, but if you’re going to _ever_ use “Dr.” in that manner as a _courtesy_—remember this is _after_ the article has already established who this person is, so “Dr.” or “Ms.” is not needed repeatedly for any reason other than courtesy—then I believe they should consistently use “Dr.” for every person who has any kind of a doctorate degree, including Ph.D., Ed.D., M.D., J.D., etc. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/54 "2020-12-14T15:26:54Z")
> [@naita](#): > > But among other things this WSJ editor says that it was fine to call Dr. Biden kiddo in that piece because her husband sometimes does. Dre sometimes calls Kanye “nigga”. Many people sometimes call Epstein “homophobic cunt”. I frequently call Trump “fucknugget”. I look forward to the WSJ continuing this practice of theirs. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/55 "2020-12-14T15:27:51Z")
No. The “original usage” of doctor in English is “church father.” See [https://www.etymonline.com/word/doctor](https://www.etymonline.com/word/doctor). It’s another half century at least before it takes on the meaning “holder of advanced degree” (and “physician” isn’t far behind). Very few people who hold a doctorate nowadays are church fathers. If we are looking at “originalism” then very few of these people have any business calling themselves “doctor.” I’d think you would be equally up in arms about people who insist on using a bastardized meaning of “doctor” as “holder of an advanced degree.” 🙂 Of course, it doesn’t actually make any difference, because regardless of what the British of the 1300s meant by the term, the great majority of twenty-first century Americans are thinking of physicians when they use or hear or read the title “doctor.” That meaning really isn’t “acceptable colloquial use in some dialects.” Unless you define “colloquial” as “almost every imaginable situation” and “some dialects” as “all dialects,” that is… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/56 "2020-12-14T15:30:24Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > Very few people who hold a doctorate nowadays are church fathers. I don’t know about “very few.” In fact in modern society, which has become less and less formal, the one place I routinely see people using “Doctor” as a courtesy is when referring to or speaking to Protestant pastors with Doctor of Divinity degrees, especially in African-American churches. ---
**Author:** ![Chefguy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chefguy/32/138_2.png) [@Chefguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chefguy)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/57 "2020-12-14T15:31:33Z")
The word “doctor” _literally_ means “teacher” or “scholar”. It’s from the Latin _docere_. She is perfectly correct to use that title. ---
**Author:** ![Fiveyearlurker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/da6949/32.png) [@Fiveyearlurker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fiveyearlurker)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/58 "2020-12-14T15:36:07Z")
What’s the rationale for this? Personally, as a science PhD, I don’t go by “doctor” and I don’t insist anyone call me “doctor” ever. But, I don’t really get the idea of anyone using an honorific. But, I don’t get the idea you seem to be espousing that some people get to use it and not others. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/59 "2020-12-14T15:37:45Z")
Dan Rather tweeted about it: > ---
**Author:** ![ISiddiqui](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/97f17d/32.png) [@ISiddiqui](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ISiddiqui)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/60 "2020-12-14T15:43:51Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > > [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > > > Very few people who hold a doctorate nowadays are church fathers. > > I don’t know about “very few.” In fact in modern society, which has become less and less formal, the one place I routinely see people using “Doctor” as a courtesy is when referring to or speaking to Protestant pastors with Doctor of Divinity degrees, especially in African-American churches. Right. The one example I use a lot when someone objects to a non-medical doctor using “Doctor” is, so you think Dr. Martin Luther King, Jr. was a surgeon or something then? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=4)