# Oh goodie. Now we have the political sexist take on who gets to be called "Dr" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 14, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973 "2020-12-14T00:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/61 "2020-12-14T15:44:37Z")
Here’s a chart of doctorate recipients from 1989 to 2019 (Table 12, “selected years”). [Doctorate Recipients from U.S. Universities: 2019 | NSF - National Science Foundation](https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsf21308/data-tables#group3) Religion is not large enough to show up as a separate category. I imagine it’s a part of “other” in humanities or social science, but I don’t know for sure. It’s really small, though. So, yeah, I stand by “very few.” By comparison, according to this chart, 22.9% of doctorates are given in life sciences, 11.8 in physical sciences, 16.3 in psychology and social sciences, 18.5 in engineering, 8.3 in education… By @Pleonast’s “original” definition, all the people who hold these PhD’s have no business calling themselves doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/62 "2020-12-14T15:46:15Z")
> [@hogarth](#): > > I’ve always thought that the company name **Dr. Ing. h.c. F. Porsche AG** (i.e., Honorary Doctor of Engineering F. Porsche Inc.) is faintly ridiculous. That’s very German. They do (generally speaking) love their honorifics. My wife has a PhD. She’s not precious about it, but her correct title is “Dr” and in instances where titles are used she insists people use the correct one. That’s not remotely unreasonable. ---
**Author:** ![RitterSport](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rittersport/32/6326_2.png) [@RitterSport](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RitterSport)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/63 "2020-12-14T15:48:03Z")
> [@naita](#): > > But among other things this WSJ editor says that it was fine to call Dr. Biden kiddo in that piece because her husband sometimes does. This is so weird. I call my wife “honey”, but it would be very strange for the WSJ op-ed page to call her that. It would be epic if Epstein started his column with “Madame First Lady - Mrs. Biden - Jill - baby cakes…”, or some other nickname Biden has for her. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/64 "2020-12-14T15:52:03Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > I don’t think there’s any need to call oneself doctor unless you’re in a professional setting. I agree. However, plenty of other people do not and it can’t be considered a standard. So, any objection to Dr. Biden being referred to that way should first be addressed to the long list of other people who have pretentiously used the title for a long time. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/65 "2020-12-14T15:53:16Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > No. The “original usage” of doctor in English is “church father.” See [https://www.etymonline.com/word/doctor](https://www.etymonline.com/word/doctor). It’s another half century at least before it takes on the meaning “holder of advanced degree” (and “physician” isn’t far behind). The “holder of an advanced degree” usage is older, but I’ll agree that there’s a fuzzy border in language usage. The trouble is that university teaching and the giving of degrees was almost entirely in Latin. (There is no doubt about the meaning of the word “doctor” in Latin.) And the most common type of degree was theological. So when a degreed person in a church was called a “doctor”, was that in English or Latin? And even if the more knowledgeable people understood what “doctor” meant in Latin, when the term was used by unknowledgeable people in English, what connotation were they using, if every “doctor” they knew was an educated member of the clergy? So, it’s complicated, but etymology is fun. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/66 "2020-12-14T15:54:26Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > The term “doctor” refers to a person who has an advanced degree from a university. That is the original usage and is always correct. (Of course, lording over others with your titles and honors may not be always be polite.) > > A medical practitioner is a “physician”, “surgeon”, “midwife”, “barber”, “dentist”, etc. It was only when medical practitioners started getting advanced degrees that they would also use the term “doctor”. Nope, the original meaning was a teacher of church doctrine, from about 1300. In England, the usages of an advanced degree and as a medical professional both date back to about the same time, around 1400, as the entry at [Etymology.com](https://www.etymonline.com/search?q=doctor) sets out: > [@](#): > > c. 1300, doctour, “Church father,” from Old French doctour and directly from Medieval Latin doctor “religious teacher, adviser, scholar,” in classical Latin “teacher,” agent noun from docere “to show, teach, cause to know,” originally “make to appear right,” causative of decere “be seemly, fitting” (from PIE root \*dek- “to take, accept”). > > Meaning “holder of the highest degree in a university, one who has passed all the degrees of a faculty and is thereby empowered to teach the subjects included in it” is from late 14c. Hence “teacher, instructor, learned man; one skilled in a learned profession” (late 14c.). > > The sense of “medical professional, person duly licensed to practice medicine” (replacing native leech (n.2)) grew gradually out of this from c., 1400, though this use of the word was not common until late 16c. The transitional stage is exemplified in Chaucer’s Doctor of phesike (Latin physica came to be used extensively in Medieval Latin for medicina). ---
**Author:** ![Colibri](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/colibri/32/1841_2.png) [@Colibri](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Colibri)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/67 "2020-12-14T15:54:50Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Some newspapers, notably The New York Times, avoid the bare family name reference, and insist on some kind of title, like “Ms. Doe” or “Dr. Doe” after the first reference with full name. In an article on the singer Meat Loaf, they went so far as to refer to him as Mr. Loaf. 😉 At least they’re consistent. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 3:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/68 "2020-12-14T15:54:53Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > By comparison, according to this chart, 22.9% of doctorates are given in life sciences, 11.8 in physical sciences, 16.3 in psychology and social sciences, 18.5 in engineering, 8.3 in education… By @Pleonast’s “original” definition, all the people who hold these PhD’s have no business calling themselves doctors. Wait, what? > [@Pleonast](#): > > The term “doctor” refers to a person who has an advanced degree from a university. That is the original usage and is always correct. ---
**Author:** ![Northern\_Piper](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/northern_piper/32/5304_2.png) [@Northern\_Piper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Northern_Piper)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 4:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/69 "2020-12-14T16:01:47Z")
See also the wiki article on [Doctor of the Church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church) > [@](#): > > In the [Western church](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Western_church) four outstanding “Fathers of the Church” attained this honour in the early Middle Ages: Saint [Gregory the Great](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gregory_the_Great), Saint [Ambrose](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ambrose), Saint [Augustine](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustine), and Saint [Jerome](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jerome). The “four Doctors” became a commonplace notion among [Scholastic](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scholasticism) theologians, and a decree of [Boniface VIII](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boniface_VIII) (1298) ordering their feasts to be kept as [doubles](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Double_feast) throughout the Latin Church is contained in his sixth book of Decretals (cap. “Gloriosus”, de relique. et vener. sanctorum, in Sexto, III, 22).[[2]](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_the_Church#cite_note-CathEn-2) The term “doctor” in the sense of church teacher was being used by 1298, well before the English meaning of an advanced degree, attested to by the late 1300s in the Etymology article. ---
**Author:** ![Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/b4bc9f/32.png) [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ulf_the_Unwashed)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 4:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/70 "2020-12-14T16:02:27Z")
Sorry. I see I was unclear. I was referring to your idea that the “original” usage is all that matters. I’m standing by the Etymological dictionary’s assertion that the “church father” meaning in English predates “holder of advanced degree.” If all that counts is the original definition, which sounds like it’s your position, then very few of these folks are church fathers and they should not be calling themselves doctors. It was a response to @acsenray anyway…Better would have been to say something like “By Pleonast’s definition that ‘original’ is what counts…” Sorry again for not being clear. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/71 "2020-12-14T16:05:57Z")
> [@Ulf\_the\_Unwashed](#): > > I was referring to your idea that the “original” usage is all that matters. Ah. I was unclear as well. I did not intend to imply any causality between “original usage” and “always correct”. ---
**Author:** ![Bijou\_Drains](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bijou_drains/32/2814_2.png) [@Bijou\_Drains](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bijou_Drains)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/72 "2020-12-14T16:10:10Z")
I worked at place with many PhD people and once I got a call and they said Dr. X? For fun I did not correct them. 🙂 I also prefer to only call medical people Dr but it’s not a big deal to me. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/73 "2020-12-14T17:27:59Z")
This ludicrous op-ed and the position espoused seems to me a side-effect of the conservative war on education and “ivory tower elites.” It fits the modern conservative movement to a T to object to calling someone a Doctor who literally has a DOCTORate. (I apologize for the grammar of that previous sentence, but I’m not going to re-write it). And the patronizing misogyny of the op-ed is just the cherry on top. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/74 "2020-12-14T17:37:12Z")
Yep, it’s a right-wing threefer. Epstein simultaneously got to take a shot at the Bidens, attack the “intellectual elite”, and troll intelligent women everywhere. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/75 "2020-12-14T18:06:04Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > A medical practitioner is a “physician”, “surgeon”, “midwife”, “barber”, “dentist”, etc. It was only when medical practitioners started getting advanced degrees that they would also use the term “doctor”. Where have you been the last 600 years? Words change meaning. Now when you say "Doctor’ outside of a university setting, people think Medical of some sort. “I am going to see my Doctor on Monday”- no one think you’re gonna see a person with a PhD in linguistics. But why are arguing with me? You even quoted my "\*\*BUT since that train has left the station…_"_ and _“Personally if I had my way…”_ So, that is simply my little personal idiosyncrasy. I never said that is how it really is, or that Dr Biden should be called Mrs. In fact I said the exact opposite. Instead, you went off on some pedantic rant (and wrong too, see **Ulf** ’s post), without actually understanding what I posted. Try reading for comprehension sometime. Save the pedantic rants for someone who cares. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/76 "2020-12-14T18:10:26Z")
It is simply my little personal idiosyncrasy. I never said that is how it really is, or that Dr Biden should be called Mrs. In fact I said the exact opposite. It is really based on the fact that outside universities, when people say "Doctor’ 99% of the time they are meaning some sort of medical expert. When a person comes on stage and asks “Is there a Doctor in the house?”, do you stand up and volunteer your services as a scientist? But again, it is what it is, and if Dr Jill Biden prefers being called Doctor, more power to her. ---
**Author:** ![ShadowFacts](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shadowfacts/32/2934_2.png) [@ShadowFacts](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ShadowFacts)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/77 "2020-12-14T18:14:52Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > It is really based on the fact that outside universities, when people say "Doctor’ 99% of the time they are meaning some sort of medical expert. When a person comes on stage and asks “Is there a Doctor in the house?”, do you stand up and volunteer your services as a scientist? If only these examples had any real bearing on the issue at hand, which is using the honorific when mentioning their name. This example and the one above about talking about “my doctor” are essentially strawmen that nobody would disagree with. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/78 "2020-12-14T18:16:55Z")
Wow, you dont bother to read posts do you? ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/79 "2020-12-14T18:19:59Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > when people say "Doctor’ 99% of the time they are meaning some sort of medical expert. When a person comes on stage and asks “Is there a Doctor in the house?”, do you stand up and volunteer your services as a scientist? The latter has no bearing on the former. Of course no one with a PhD in Geology is going to announce themselves when someone calls “is there a doctor in the house”, because most people are able to use contextual clues to understand what sort of doctor is required. But that doesn’t mean that referring to a medical doctor is 99% of the usage of “doctor”. That’s absurd. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/80 "2020-12-14T18:22:09Z")
Try reading what I posted, all of my posts on the subject. You are just arguing for the sake of arguing since I have said that op-ed writer is totally wrong. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=5)