# Oh goodie. Now we have the political sexist take on who gets to be called "Dr" **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 14, 2020, 12:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973 "2020-12-14T00:51:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Ann\_Hedonia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ann_hedonia/32/319_2.png) [@Ann\_Hedonia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ann_Hedonia)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/142 "2020-12-14T23:24:50Z")
Are you saying that if my boss repeatedly comments on my sexy ass, that’s not harassment because men have asses, too? ---
**Author:** ![Fretful\_Porpentine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fretful_porpentine/32/2873_2.png) [@Fretful\_Porpentine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fretful_Porpentine)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/143 "2020-12-14T23:38:43Z")
> [@Tabco](#): > > Given Dr. Biden’s background as a community college professor, there is one thing I’m curious about. I spent two or so years at a community college accumulating credits before transferring to my current 4-year university to finish my degree. Many of my instructors had PhDs but I recall almost all of them preferring the use of their first name, and begrudgingly accepting a Mr. or Mrs. They generally objected when any student attempted to use Dr. > > At my current university, instructors generally seem to prefer the use of Dr. If not applicable, then they preferred the use of their last name. I haven’t seen any of them encourage the use of their first name. I wonder if there’s something about community colleges that pressures instructors to encourage the use of first names. > > I doubt any of this has anything to do with the article nor would it excuse the article if it did. Just something I was wondering about. Not as far as I know (and I know a number of community college instructors). The titles faculty use are often a matter of the individual college’s culture, which can vary quite a bit, even among institutions of the same general type. (Sometimes it also varies by department – it’s fairly common for fine and performing arts faculty to go by first names even when the institution’s standard is to use titles, for example.) ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2020, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/144 "2020-12-14T23:50:53Z")
I will say that, in academia, there’s a tendency to default to “Dr.” when you don’t know otherwise. I got my first correspondence addressed to “Dr. Lastname” before I even got my bachelor’s. It makes sense. It avoids the question of whether to use “Mr.” or “Ms” (or “Miss” or “Mrs.”) with people whose gender you don’t know, and while an actual PhD might possibly take offense at the lack of the title, very few non-PhDs are going to take offense at being mistaken for one. Plus, of course, a very large proportion of people in academia are actually doctors. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/145 "2020-12-15T00:00:34Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > I earned a PhD (mathematics) and I while I do not insist that people address me as doctor or introduce myself as such, I will correct anyone who calls me mister. Nitpick: If you’re “correcting” people who use the honorific “Mr.” for you, that kind of is insisting that they use “Dr.” instead, unless you’re just going with first names. Other nitpick: In a social setting, it isn’t automatically incorrect to refer to or address any American (non-titled) man as “Mr.”. “Mr.” is a perfectly good and honorable title for any American man, up to and including a male POTUS, in a social situation where professional titles are not required. However, it is incorrect to insist on addressing a particular American man as “Mr.” once you know he prefers a different earned honorific, such as “Dr.” or “Major”. ---
**Author:** ![Lance\_Turbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lance_turbo/32/6156_2.png) [@Lance\_Turbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lance_Turbo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/146 "2020-12-15T00:04:44Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Nitpick: If you’re “correcting” people who use the honorific “Mr.” for you, that kind of is insisting that they use “Dr.” instead, unless you’re just going with first names. When someone calls me, “Mr. Lastname,” I respond with, “Please call me Firstname, but if for some reason you insist on formality, it’s Dr. Lastname.” ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/147 "2020-12-15T00:06:12Z")
Fair enough! More words for the bot. (ETA: I mean I had to add more words after my first two for the bot, not that your response was words for the bot.) ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/148 "2020-12-15T00:27:32Z")
> [@Fretful\_Porpentine](#): > > Not as far as I know (and I know a number of community college instructors). The titles faculty use are often a matter of the individual college’s culture, which can vary quite a bit, even among institutions of the same general type. (Sometimes it also varies by department – it’s fairly common for fine and performing arts faculty to go by first names even when the institution’s standard is to use titles, for example.) Right. But in this case, the question isn’t “How should she, as a community college professor, have her students address her?” The question is "As First Lady, should she go by ‘Mrs.’ instead of ‘Dr.’? All the talk about honorifics in general is really beside the point here: as First Lady, she’s not going to be “Jill”. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/149 "2020-12-15T00:34:37Z")
> [@Lance\_Turbo](#): > > When someone calls me, “Mr. Lastname,” I respond with, “Please call me Firstname, but if for some reason you insist on formality, it’s Dr. Lastname.” In the university I worked in, most professor, post-docs and graduate students were on a first name basis. However, undergraduate students referred to faculty members as Dr. In the community colleges it was Dr. for those with doctorates and Prof. for those with master’s. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/150 "2020-12-15T00:41:06Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > The question is "As First Lady, should she go by ‘Mrs.’ instead of ‘Dr.’? All the talk about honorifics in general is really beside the point here: as First Lady, she’s not going to be “Jill”. If I were to meet her at some kind of a professional or formal function, I’d address her as Dr. Biden unless she insisted on something else. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/151 "2020-12-15T00:47:14Z")
And if you met her at an informal function? I don’t see myself calling her Jill there, either! ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/152 "2020-12-15T00:49:30Z")
When that “Reason” article claims that an EdD “is not the equivalent of a PhD.” and only requires “about 2/3 of the credit hours required for a JD”, it’s worth remembering that that credit hour count doesn’t include the Masters degree required for entry to the EdD program (of which Dr. Biden has two), something the JD does not require, and that the focus on credit hours distracts from the fact that the majority of the work to earn a research doctorate (as opposed to professional doctorates like JDs) is not classroom work (where credit hours apply) but original research and production of a substantive, defended dissertation. And while it isn’t a universal view, the majority view within higher education circles is that a PhD and EdD are at a roughly equivalent level, albeit with different focuses and research requirements. As for the rest of the ill-informed op-ed piece, Mr Volokh’s friends are free to call themselves what they like. And Dr Biden may do the same. But Mr Volokh’s insistence that his JD degree is somehow higher level than her EdD is not something the vast majority of educational professionals would agree on. ---
**Author:** ![psychobunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/54ee81/32.png) [@psychobunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychobunny)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/153 "2020-12-15T00:50:20Z")
I say she earned her degree and she earned the title. You just have to make a distinction between Doctor as an honorific and doctor as a profession. The only time it’s ever actually bothered me is my undergraduate school. They sent me a form for the alumni letter asking for my honorific and I put Dr. (mostly to let the other premeds know that I did actually make it) but they persist in addressing me as Ms. I haven’t been upset enough to actually correct them this past 25 years, but it irritates me. That said, there are cases where using the title is misleading and I don’t think it should be used. For example, I think Nurse Practioners are an incredible asset to medical care and I have personally used one for primary care in the past but addressing them as Doctor is misleading. Patients frequently call anyone who is treating them Doctor anyway, but I don’t think it should be encouraged. What concerns me more, however, is the trend toward the Doctor of Nursing Practice degree. Again, as an honorific, in a social setting, introducing someone, etc, by all means call them Doctor. However, when offering a patient a choice of primary providers and indicating that they can see Dr. X, Dr. Y or Dr. Z, then using the title implies that the patient will see a small “d” doctor and I feel this can be dangerously misleading if the patient is not informed that some providers have an MD or DO and some have a DNP, because the difference in training is quite substantial. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/154 "2020-12-15T00:56:35Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And if you met her at an informal function? I don’t see myself calling her Jill there, either! I’d feel much more comfortable calling her Dr. Biden than Mrs. Biden. I have a feeling that she’d introduce herself as Jill in an informal setting. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/155 "2020-12-15T00:57:43Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > And if you met her at an informal function? I don’t see myself calling her Jill there, either! What if you were at a reception and she introduced herself as, “Hi! I’m Jill”? But when chit-chatting in English one does not have to repeat the person’s name all that often, since one can use pronouns: “What do _you_ think about all this horrible weather?” ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 12:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/156 "2020-12-15T00:59:28Z")
Pretty sure I’d still call her Dr. Biden even if she introduced herself as Jill, or, as noted, just avoiding saying her name. ---
**Author:** ![susan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/susan/32/17537_2.png) [@susan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/susan)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/157 "2020-12-15T01:04:00Z")
I’d call her Dr. Biden under any non-intimate circumstances unless invited to do otherwise. I’ve said here before that my students can call me “susan” or “Dr. Surname,” but there is no such entity as “Mrs. Surname” and if things are formal enough to call me “Ms.,” then “Dr.” is the correct honorific. Administrators call me “susan” or “Dr. Surname,” and I don’t care unless they are addressing people with the same degree differently by gender. My clients all call me “susan” and insurance carriers all call me “Dr. Surname.” ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/158 "2020-12-15T01:16:01Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > Pretty sure I’d still call her Dr. Biden even if she introduced herself as Jill, or, as noted, just avoiding saying her name. I’d totally call her Jill! > [@Gyrate](#): > > As for the rest of the ill-informed op-ed piece, Mr Volokh’s friends are free to call themselves what they like. And Dr Biden may do the same. But Mr Volokh’s insistence that his JD degree is somehow higher level than her EdD is not something the vast majority of educational professionals would agree on. Yes! In my experience, JD’s are not the equivalent of PhD’s. I had a friend who taught in a legal studies program. He was such a good teacher that I recommended him for a position in my university where they had a general education capstone course. I was told that he was unqualified to teach that course because he only had a JD instead of even an MS, let alone a PhD. ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/159 "2020-12-15T01:29:05Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > Yes! In my experience, JD’s are not the equivalent of PhD’s. I had a friend who taught in a legal studies program. He was such a good teacher that I recommended him for a position in my university where they had a general education capstone course. I was told that he was unqualified to teach that course because he only had a JD instead of even an MS, let alone a PhD. Note that I’m not intending to diminish what JDs are - it is a demanding professional degree designed to teach students an immensely complex subject that will be rigorously tested when they get into professional life. But it’s not a research degree requiring an original substantive output. For that, you need an [SJD/JSD](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctor_of_Juridical_Science) or an LLD in some countries (although in the US they seem to be largely honorary). ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/160 "2020-12-15T01:43:05Z")
> [@Gyrate](#): > > But it’s not a research degree requiring an original substantive output. Yes. That was their argument. They preferred a PhD to ensure that the person did original research. They were willing to take someone with a masters if that was a research track masters. They wouldn’t accept the JD. ---
**Author:** ![Chisquirrel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6bbea6/32.png) [@Chisquirrel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chisquirrel)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2020, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973/161 "2020-12-15T01:55:54Z")
> [@Fiveyearlurker](#): > > he so magnanimously refuses to use his own title of “doctor” which was an honorary doctorate given to him. Except he doesn’t. He admitted in his bullshit that he never corrected his students or colleagues when they called him doctor, even before his fake doctorate. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goodie-now-we-have-the-political-sexist-take-on-who-gets-to-be-called-dr/927973.md?page=9)