# Oh goody. US becoming more like USSR **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 17, 2012, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214 "2012-05-17T15:36:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/61 "2012-05-18T18:36:28Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > You are still subject to US tax, you just get a $90K exclusion or so on earned income, but no exclusion on capital gains. So if I sell my apartment and move, I have to pay capital gains on it, even though the money was earned outside the US and will be re-spent outside the US. And with bona fide residence the 30 day limit doesn’t really apply - I can spend 60 days in the US and it is pro-rated… and least for income. No break at all on capital gains… they get you for gains on currency transactions too. I meant if you expatriated. “Further, expatriated individuals will be subject to U.S. tax on their worldwide income for any of the 10 years following expatriation in which they are present in the U.S. for more than 30 days, or 60 days in the case of individuals working in the U.S. for an unrelated employer.” [http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/62 "2012-05-18T18:43:44Z")
> [@Damuri\_Ajashi](#): > > I meant if you expatriated. > > “Further, expatriated individuals will be subject to U.S. tax on their worldwide income for any of the 10 years following expatriation in which they are present in the U.S. for more than 30 days, or 60 days in the case of individuals working in the U.S. for an unrelated employer.” > > [http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html](http://www.irs.gov/businesses/small/international/article/0,,id=97245,00.html) Expatriated in this case means renouncing the citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Damuri\_Ajashi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/898d66/32.png) [@Damuri\_Ajashi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Damuri_Ajashi)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/63 "2012-05-18T21:08:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Expatriated in this case means renouncing the citizenship. Yes that’s right. I don’t really see anything wrong with the current set of rules and Schumer can propose whatever the hell he wants, I don’t take him seriously. ---
**Author:** ![Snowboarder\_Bo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/snowboarder_bo/32/229_2.png) [@Snowboarder\_Bo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Snowboarder_Bo)\ **Post date:** [May 18, 2012, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/64 "2012-05-18T22:02:38Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > I have family in the US that I like to visit and it’s the only country where I have citizenship (since even if I was born here and lived here my whole life, I could never get citizenship). If I simply didn’t pay my US tax (easy enough to do), they would surely come after be when (a) I visit the US or (b) when I renew my passport every 10 years. Plus, I may want to return to the US in 20 or 30 years if it starts to function better. > > $40K is a bunch of money to send to a government on the other side of the world for no good reason. So the reason’s you just listed aren’t, to you, good reasons? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/65 "2012-05-19T00:23:32Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Maybe you’re not aware of this, but we do let non-citizens into the country - that’s why we have these things called “visas” and even “green cards” which let a non-citizen stay in the country indefinitely. No shit. But that’s not the same thing and you know it. Now, should a person be taxed if they live outside the US? Well, that depends – are they still entitled to social security and things like that? (For the most part, I agree it’s bullshit, but as far as Savarin, if he wants to LIVE in the U.S., then he shouldn’t have ditched his citizenship. He’s not an immigrant, which is the purpose of visas and green cards. > [@Kobal2](#): > > WRONG. Have you ever seen a commie drink a glass of water ? Vodka, that’s what they drink, isn’t it ? Never water. On no account will a commie ever drink water, and not without good reason. I believe the word _vodka_ translates to “little water”. Heh. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 1:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/66 "2012-05-19T01:30:33Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > He’s not an immigrant, which is the purpose of visas and green cards. As the name suggests, immigration is the purpose of _immigration visas_, not all visas. Visas of various sorts are for _any_ non-citizen who wants to enter the country - whether they’re just passing through as they travel to a third country or whether they plan to stay there until the day they die. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/67 "2012-05-19T02:14:10Z")
IIRC, though, most visas have a time limit on them, and have to be renewed. In this specific case though, Saverin just went and ditched his citizenship because he didn’t want to pay taxes. That’s it. Period. Imagine if everyone in the country decided to do that? ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/68 "2012-05-19T02:54:21Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > These backronyms (“Ex-PATRIOT”) are really starting to grind my gears. Are they going to be whole sentences soon? > > At least CCCP was a valid initialism. Not everything they did was bad. Well, except trying to spell “USSR” in that unaccountably weird way . . . ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 2:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/69 "2012-05-19T02:55:51Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > In this specific case though, Saverin just went and ditched his citizenship because he didn’t want to pay taxes. That’s it. Period. Imagine if everyone in the country decided to do that? Some **native-born** U.S. citizens [have tried that.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sovereign_citizen_movement) It never works. ---
**Author:** ![DMC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dmc/32/18049_2.png) [@DMC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMC)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/70 "2012-05-19T03:07:46Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Seriously, I don’t see the issue here…nor do I see any sort of comparison between the US today and the old USSR, except that both have a ‘U’ and an ‘S’ in their name. > > -XT You’re not paying close enough attention. The 3rd letter in Vespucci is an “S”, and the fourth letter in Amerigo is an “R.” 4 - 3 = 1 and the 1st letter is Amerigo Vespucci is an “A”, thus SR = A, thus USSR = USA. See, it all makes sense now and I am fully on board with Terr and wish to subscribe to his newsletter. The first 100 subscribers get a free hat, courtesy of Alcoa. ---
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 6:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/71 "2012-05-19T06:01:05Z")
I didn’t read the new legislation. But I assume there’s a clause that says if you renounce your US citizenship to avoid paying taxes that you have to leave with $100 and two suitcases. That really is shameful. ---
**Author:** ![Fuji](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/a9a28c/32.png) [@Fuji](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuji)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/72 "2012-05-19T11:42:33Z")
> [@Desert\_Nomad](#): > > If I simply didn’t pay my US tax (easy enough to do), they would surely come after be when (a) I visit the US or (b) when I renew my passport every 10 years. Are you sure about this? It doesn’t accord with my experience. I moved to Ireland in January 2006 (after working in the US for over 19 years and paying my taxes on said earnings), and have worked and lived here since then. Now, admittedly, my situation is not the same is yours, as I have dual (US-Irish) citizenship through my maternal ancestry, but it’s not like I informed the IRS of my relocation plans or anything - from their perspective, I simply disappeared. During that 2006-2012 period, I have: a) visited the US four times, and b) had my US passport renewed until 2020. No issues with either of those. ---
**Author:** ![foolsguinea](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foolsguinea/32/14751_2.png) [@foolsguinea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/foolsguinea)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/73 "2012-05-19T17:31:18Z")
It’s weird. What Schumer is proposing is pretty much what I’ve said I would do to any whiny billionaire who says he’ll leave the country if taxes go up. “Leave, and don’t come back!” But looking at someone actually doing it, I actually agree with Terr. I’m not really a fan of permanent exile. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/74 "2012-05-19T21:09:33Z")
> [@foolsguinea](#): > > It’s weird. What Schumer is proposing is pretty much what I’ve said I would do to any whiny billionaire who says he’ll leave the country if taxes go up. “Leave, and don’t come back!” > > But looking at someone actually doing it, I actually agree with Terr. I’m not really a fan of permanent exile. Keep in mind that we’re talking only about naturalized citizens who have renounced their U.S. citizenship. Native-born citizens can’t renounce it, and can’t be barred from re-entry. Exile of citizens is a criminal punishment used by states of antiquity (much **cheaper** than imprisonment), but unknown to American law. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/75 "2012-05-19T21:12:47Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Native-born citizens can’t renounce it, and can’t be barred from re-entry. Wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 9:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/76 "2012-05-19T21:42:25Z")
It makes perfect sense for American citizens living abroad to continue to pay taxes to the US. US citizenship has a host of benefits associated with it. OK, so **Desert Nomad** has never availed himself of consular services, but he could if he chose. If he and a group of his fellow expats were held hostage by terrorists, the US military would attempt to rescue them. He can come back to the US any time he wants, for any reason he wants, and stay as long as he wants. He is, in short, getting benefits from his citizenship, and it’s only just that he pay for those benefits. And if he decides that the benefits aren’t worth the price, fine, he can choose to stop paying it. Now, you want to argue that he should pay lower taxes as long as he’s living outside the country? OK, that’s reasonable. You want to ask why other countries don’t have a similar policy? I don’t know, ask them. But a policy of expats paying taxes is hardly ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 10:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/77 "2012-05-19T22:58:25Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Cite? (My cite would be the 14th Amendment.) ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/78 "2012-05-19T23:02:05Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? (My cite would be the 14th Amendment.) > **[404 - Page Not Found](https://travel.state.gov/content/travel/en/404.html)** Point out to me where it says that only naturalized citizens can renounce the citizenship. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/79 "2012-05-19T23:11:18Z")
> [@BrainGlutton](#): > > Cite? (My cite would be the 14th Amendment.) or, if you would like examples of US-born citizens who renounced their citizenships: [Michael Dingman](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_D._Dingman) [John Dorrance III](http://www.forbes.com/profile/john-dorrance/) [Mark Mobius](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Mobius) [Kenneth Dart](http://www.kendart.com/) ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 19, 2012, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214/80 "2012-05-19T23:30:18Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > [404 - Page Not Found](http://travel.state.gov/law/citizenship/citizenship_776.html) > > Point out to me where it says that only naturalized citizens can renounce the citizenship. Did not know that. However, looking at [this:](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Renunciation_of_citizenship#United_States) > [@](#): > > The United States requires that an individual go in person to a U.S. embassy or consulate outside the U.S. and sign before a consular officer an oath or affirmation that he intends to renounce his citizenship, although exceptions are legally permitted in times of war and under special circumstances.[14][15] During the expatriation procedure, the individual must complete several documents and demonstrate in an interview with a consular officer that the renunciation is voluntary and intentional. Depending on the embassy or consulate, the individual is often required to appear in person two times and conduct two separate interviews with consular officers over the course of several months.[16] > > There were between 222-235 renunciants in 2008, between 731-743 in 2009, and about 1485 in 2010;[17][18] In 2011, there were 1781 renunciants.[19] > > Formal confirmation of the loss of U.S. citizenship is provided by the Certificate of Loss of Nationality and is received by the renunciant a number of months later. Renunciation of U.S. citizenship was free until July, 2010, at which time a fee of $450 was established. Although many countries require citizenship of another nation before allowing renunciation, the United States does not and an individual may legally renounce U.S. citizenship and become stateless. Nonetheless, the United States Department of State warns renunciants that, unless they already possess a foreign nationality or are assured of acquiring another nationality shortly after completing their renunciation, they would become stateless and without the protection of any government.[20] > > In one case, Vincent Cate, an encryption expert living in Anguilla, chose to renounce his US citizenship to avoid the possibility of violating US laws that may prohibit US citizens from “exporting” encryption software.[21] I see nothing that says renunciation is irrevocable for a native-born citizen – that would create constitutional problems – and no instance of a native-born renunciate being denied re-entry to the U.S. – which also would. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-goody-us-becoming-more-like-ussr/622214.md?page=5)