# Oh Great - $7 milk unless Congress gets their thumb out. **URL:** \ **Category:** Politics & Elections\ **Created:** [December 22, 2012, 10:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877 "2012-12-22T22:57:05Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/41 "2012-12-23T17:53:34Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Ok, or people would eat frozen or canned produce during the winter, which would be fine from a health standpoint, our bodies don’t need fresh strawberries in December. It would take a pretty dramatic shift for people in those areas without access to local fresh produce to accept that they’re not going to get it though, and that might be the real effect. If milk truly should be priced at $7/gallon, is that just the factory farmed dairy stuff or would the dairy down the road need to charge the same? > > I guess that’s really my question, if the government is currently subsidizing large food producers, how would ending that practice effect small local farmers? Would there be more farmer’s markets or fewer of them? Would prices at those farmer’s markets go up in line with larger producers or would they be able to undercut those prices? > > I live in the opposite of a food desert, in that there are three markets within a five minute walk of my home. This is great, except that all of them sell only seasonal produce and that’s been an adjustment for me since I’ve just moved here from a large city with mega markets (none of which were within walking distance) where I could buy pretty much any produce I wanted. > > So I’m wondering if cutting subsidies would result in more communities like mine, or in fist fights over the last gallon in the dairy aisles at Safeway? Subsidies help domestic producers over non-domestic producers. Forget about whether you would see more food from your local farm than from across the country. You would see more food from foreign suppliers. ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/42 "2012-12-23T18:04:46Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Subsidies help domestic producers over non-domestic producers. Forget about whether you would see more food from your local farm than from across the country. You would see more food from foreign suppliers. Yes, I can see that, because without the subsidies a Mexican tomato would be cheaper than an American one, even with the costs of transportation. What I’m wondering though, is if it would also be cheaper than those grown by the small farmer down the street or a can of tomatoes from the market? In other words is there a point where consumers give up on large food producers because they can no longer make an affordable product? Whether it’s a gallon of milk or anything else, if my tax dollars are subsidizing production then the price isn’t as low as they’re pretending anyway, and the guy at the farmer’s market has stuff for the same prices without the subsidy. So, by my logic cutting subsidies would increase farmer’s markets (which often include products from local dairies). This could mean more local farm jobs, less industrial waste, and lower taxes. Yes? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/43 "2012-12-23T18:08:47Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > Yes, I can see that, because without the subsidies a Mexican tomato would be cheaper than an American one, even with the costs of transportation. What I’m wondering though, is if it would also be cheaper than those grown by the small farmer down the street or a can of tomatoes from the market? In other words is there a point where consumers give up on large food producers because they can no longer make an affordable product? > > Whether it’s a gallon of milk or anything else, if my tax dollars are subsidizing production then the price isn’t as low as they’re pretending anyway, and the guy at the farmer’s market has stuff for the same prices without the subsidy. So, by my logic cutting subsidies would increase farmer’s markets (which often include products from local dairies). This could mean more local farm jobs, less industrial waste, and lower taxes. Yes? Subsidies like this protect producers from the vagaries of the market. Who do you think is better suited to ride the ups and downs of the market: Old McDonald or [ADM](http://www.adm.com/en-US/Pages/default.aspx)? ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/44 "2012-12-23T18:22:57Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > Subsidies like this protect producers from the vagaries of the market. Who do you think is better suited to ride the ups and downs of the market: Old McDonald or [ADM](http://www.adm.com/en-US/Pages/default.aspx)? Good question. I guess what I’m thinking is that the vagaries of the market are a part of the deal just like any other business. I think if a huge corporation like ADM needs tax dollars to stay in business then they should close up shop just like the video store across town had to do when Netflix showed up. And so, my question again is this: what would take their place? Because if the price of milk gets so high that no one can afford to buy it what’s the next step? Either we all stop drinking milk or the domestic price comes back down or we start trucking in milk from somewhere else and still get a better price or we make friends with the dairy farmer three towns over and start buying it from him for less than $7/gallon. In all of those scenarios the community has decided not to pay the higher price, which effectively empties the $7/gallon threat. So I’m saying go ahead, raise the price of milk, because it’s ADM that will lose in the end. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 23, 2012, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/45 "2012-12-23T18:44:12Z")
I don’t know that ADM needs the subsidies, but they are certainly in a better position than Mr. McDonald to not only work the system, but ensure the system is designed to benefit them. Keep in mind that these subsidies are expressly designed to keep the price of the product higher than the market prices them. They kick in when the price drops “too low”. The government creates artificial “demand” that keeps the prices higher. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 2:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/46 "2012-12-24T02:14:04Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > In all of those scenarios the community has decided not to pay the higher price, which effectively empties the $7/gallon threat. Wrong. You _will_ pay the higher price, because the government will take your money (or take out another loan in your name) without your consent and spend it on the $7 a gallon milk. Subsidy money doesn’t grow on trees. ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/47 "2012-12-24T04:10:45Z")
First, they came after Canada’s maple syrup, and I said nothing… Then they came after America’s milk, and I said nothing… ---
**Author:** ![moejoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/9de053/32.png) [@moejoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/moejoe)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/48 "2012-12-24T04:33:09Z")
> [@Grumman](#): > > Wrong. You _will_ pay the higher price, because the government will take your money (or take out another loan in your name) without your consent and spend it on the $7 a gallon milk. Subsidy money doesn’t grow on trees. Hmm, I understood the threat to be if you don’t give us our subsidies we’ll have to raise the price to $7 per gallon because those subsidies are what’s keeping the price we charge at the register lower than that now. So if the price goes up that high, it would be because there _are_ no subsidies for the government to steal from me, correct? To which I say go ahead because no one is going to buy milk with a $7/gallon price tag at the quickie mart, so the companies who tried to sell it at that price would lose customers and…then what? What comes after that? Do they dig into profits and lower the price because selling some for less is better than selling none for more? Do Americans start making friends with local dairies? Do Americans begin starting small dairies in their own communities? How will Americans respond if the price of milk really does go up to $7 per gallon? Would that response be better (for the federal budget and/or for citizens) than the current system of subsidies? ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 5:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/49 "2012-12-24T05:52:17Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > To which I say go ahead because no one is going to buy milk with a $7/gallon price tag at the quickie mart, so the companies who tried to sell it at that price would lose customers and…then what? > > What comes after that? Do they dig into profits and lower the price because selling some for less is better than selling none for more? You still don’t get it. They can sell it _all_ for more, because that’s what the government is offering. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/50 "2012-12-24T06:26:30Z")
> [@moejoe](#): > > How will Americans respond if the price of milk really does go up to $7 per gallon? Either me and a group of friends band together to purchase a dairy cow which we then graze on my friend’s 70 acres of land, or I buy a dairy goat. Either way, we’ll have milk… even if we have to raise our own. Of course, it helps I’m in an area where it’s legal to own livestock. ---
**Author:** ![Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/96bed5/32.png) [@Patty\_O\_Furniture](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Patty_O_Furniture)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 6:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/51 "2012-12-24T06:33:25Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Either me and a group of friends band together to purchase a dairy cow which we then graze on my friend’s 70 acres of land, or I buy a dairy goat. I hear that’s an expensive and time-consuming hobby. I hope you aren’t expecting any government subsidies. ---
**Author:** ![Enderw24](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/ba9def/32.png) [@Enderw24](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enderw24)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/52 "2012-12-24T15:25:08Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > What’s your position on garlic subsidies? 😉 It’s an indication that the entire system needs to be re-vamped. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 3:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/53 "2012-12-24T15:27:40Z")
So, after the government buys up all this milk at this inflated price, what does it do with it then? Make it all into welfare cheese? Re-sell it to the public? Put it all into the Strategic Milk Reserve? ---
**Author:** ![Flyer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/flyer/32/7298_2.png) [@Flyer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Flyer)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/54 "2012-12-24T19:34:57Z")
> [@drewtwo99](#): > > Yeah, lets see the tea party argue for limited government here. I want to see them support ending subsidies for dairy farmers and other farmers. I’m not entirely certain that I consider myself a member of the Tea Party, but I have wished for a long time that all farm subsidies would be ended. Unfortunately, too many Congressmen put their constituents and their political careers above the Constitution. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 7:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/55 "2012-12-24T19:50:47Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > So, after the government buys up all this milk at this inflated price, what does it do with it then? Make it all into welfare cheese? Re-sell it to the public? Put it all into the Strategic Milk Reserve? Generally commodities purchased as part of agricultural price support activities are disposed of in ways that will minimize the impact on the domestic market. Since the whole point is to keep the food production infrastructure mostly in tact through market fluctuations (by creating an artificial price floor to guarantee some level of profitability for at least some producers) it would be counterproductive if the government got rid of the excess in a way that reduced demand for the product on the open market. It can be given away as foreign aid, sold later on the open market when conditions are stable, or used in school lunch programs, just as examples. While some farm subsidies need ended, the general concept isn’t terrible. Since time immemorial civilized societies have needed to feed themselves through agriculture. Even in the modern world it does make sense for government to have a program in place to avoid the “food production infrastructure” from collapsing due to market variations. That would expose us to famine, which is a bad thing. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 24, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/56 "2012-12-24T20:55:01Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > While some farm subsidies need ended, the general concept isn’t terrible. Since time immemorial civilized societies have needed to feed themselves through agriculture. Even in the modern world it does make sense for government to have a program in place to avoid the “food production infrastructure” from collapsing due to market variations. That would expose us to famine, which is a bad thing. I’d be interested in seeing proof that any of these farm subsidies is needed to prevent famine. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2012, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/57 "2012-12-26T15:53:16Z")
> [@John\_Mace](#): > > I’d be interested in seeing proof that any of these farm subsidies is needed to prevent famine. I never made such a claim. What I said is that ending all farm subsidies **could expose us to famine** which is a very different claim. Farm subsidies do historically come from an era in which some of the people involved in the earliest subsidy legislation (which came in the early 20s) had lived through food shortages. I’m not claiming it is akin to a dam where if you demolish it flooding will immediately happen. Instead, as I said, it protects the long term food production infrastructure. It isn’t in the interests of the United States for large scale farm bankruptcies to happen, because in a far off scenario if global food production is for some catastrophic reason severely damaged then we would need a guarantee of total food self-sufficiency since in such a scenario countries would not be exporting much if any food. If farms were allowed to totally boom/bust there is the danger such a global food crisis could happen at the same time as a bust cycle and we’d have lower farm output available. An inactive farm can only be brought back on line so quickly, especially dairy or meat production as it takes time to acquire the animals and time for them to grow. Crop farms have the problem of plants only growing so fast and seasonal constraints. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 1:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/58 "2012-12-27T01:09:23Z")
> [@](#): > > Generally commodities purchased as part of agricultural price support activities are disposed of in ways that will minimize the impact on the domestic market. Generally, yes. But then, generally, the government is buying these commodities at a sane price, such that most of the production is still going to private buyers. If Uncle Sam is paying $7 a gallon, though, it’s going to end up with a heck of a lot more milk than it usually does. And decisions about what to do with the milk are probably made at a departmental level, not requiring action by a gridlocked Congress, so presumably the Department of Agriculture (I presume) would be making some unconventional decisions to deal with the unconventional situation. ---
**Author:** ![Tom\_Scud](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f08c70/32.png) [@Tom\_Scud](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tom_Scud)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/59 "2012-12-27T15:31:06Z")
One could imagine them selling surplus milk below-cost to those who process and manufacture dairy products. In other words, blessed are the cheesemakers. ---
**Author:** ![Dumbguy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/2bfe46/32.png) [@Dumbguy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dumbguy)\ **Post date:** [December 27, 2012, 6:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877/60 "2012-12-27T18:40:23Z")
> [@Martin\_Hyde](#): > > I never made such a claim. What I said is that ending all farm subsidies **could expose us to famine** which is a very different claim. Seems like a pretty big jump from ‘best fed civilization in the history of the species’ to ‘famine’ regardless of how many conditionals you use. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-great-7-milk-unless-congress-gets-their-thumb-out/644877.md?page=4)