# Oh how the times are changing. Corporal punishment. **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [September 16, 2014, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693 "2014-09-16T23:26:54Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/41 "2014-09-18T03:07:08Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > So in order to teach them that they shouldn’t do something that will cause them pain, you instead cause them pain yourself? How does that work, exactly? You can’t let a child run out into a street to let them learn what getting hit by a car feels like, bit too risky. If your kid is obsessed with cars and touching their headlights and tailights and doesn’t yet grasp the consequences of a human being getting hit by a moving car, and seems to think running out into the street to touch moving cars is harmless YES some parental inflicted pain can save their life. Again because they are pre-verbal and don’t grasp at all that their actions could cause serious injury or death, hell they don’t even know what death is. If the question is inflict some pain with my hand on my kid’s butt with a few swats to stop potentially fatal behavior, or don’t do it I know what the right choice is. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 4:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/42 "2014-09-18T04:21:46Z")
My grandmother once made my aunt kneel on dry rice for something or another. I can’t imagine how that would hurt! > [@Lemur866](#): > > Yep, I never see anybody advocating corporal punishment for adults, but if it works for kids, why wouldn’t it work even better for adults? > > If my buddy does something stupid, why can’t I beat him up? If a guy cuts me off in traffic, why can’t I force him off the road and give him the business? If my wife doesn’t have dinner ready when I get home, why can’t I pop her one? Because children aren’t miniature adults? The only time I EVER got spanked as a kid was if I did something dangerous – ran out into the street, or tried to touch a hot stove. A “we mean business, and this is just something you do NOT do, EVER!” I got my mouth washed out with soap a few times, but that’s about the worst. (And really, that just tastes really disgusting, that’s all) Mostly, I lost priveledges. Didn’t pick up my toys? Fine, my mother would – but she’d put them somewhere I couldn’t get them. Threw a tantrum at the grocery store? No tv/dessert/going out to play later. And it was never called “time out” when I was a kid. It was, “you SIT THERE, and you STAY there, until I SAY you can get up!” Honestly, mostly I’d behave when my father got mad. Not because he’d hit me or anything, but because when he gets mad, he has this “look” on his face, and his voice gets deeper and he speaks very slowly. He’s a big guy - 6’3, so he looks extremely intimidating. ---
**Author:** ![Urbanredneck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ea5d25/32.png) [@Urbanredneck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Urbanredneck)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/43 "2014-09-18T05:17:49Z")
> [@Neo-Calredic](#): > > I have a 3.5 year old daughter, and neither my wife or I have ever hit her. When punishment is called for, she gets put in time out, or she has things she likes taken away and has to earn them back through consistent good behavior. I was spanked occasionally as a kid, as was my wife. While I don’t believe that an occasional swat delivered calmly makes someone a child abuser, it’s still not something I personally will ever do, for multiple reasons. > > First of all, as I see it, spanking a kid teaches them a lot more than just to avoid behavior X. It also teaches them that their parents see violence as a solution to problems. It teaches them that authority ultimately derives from power – might makes right – and that they are expected to defer to someone willing to hurt them in order to avoid pain. None of those things are lessons I want to ingrain in my daughter. > > Second, there have been plenty of times when my daughter was throwing a fit and not responding to anything I tried when, in a moment of anger and frustration, I felt the _temptation_ to hit her. I didn’t, because I knew I would immediately regret it if I did, but the impulse was there. I strongly suspect the circumstances under which most parents dole out corporal punishment are very similar, no matter how firmly they later insist that it was done calmly and soberly, and that seems bad for a lot of reasons – not least of which is that it shows your kid that you think it’s OK to hit people when you lose your temper. > > It also seems to me that most people who use corporal punishment do so because it was done to them, and they “turned out OK.” A lot of the same people also seem to take any criticism of corporal punishment as an indictment of both themselves and their parents. “My parents hit me and I turned out OK in my own opinion” seems like a pretty damn weak justification for hitting a small child to me. > > The fact that the there are countless people online at this very moment passionately defending a huge football player who beat his four-year-old son bloody is mind-blowing to me. If it had been anyone other than his own child, he’d be universally vilified. But because he chose to beat the one small child who looks up to him and depends on him for guidance and support, many people defend him. That just seems completely fucked up to me. That sounds great. But you know what, she might suddenly change tomorrow and suddenly everything you’ve done before becomes ineffective. it happens. Or maybe you will have another kid who is different than your first. It happens. I’ve seen some parents who before they had kids swore up and down that it was wrong then they get a stubborn 4 year old who refuses to listen find themselves forced to spank their kid. ---
**Author:** ![chappachula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/d2c977/32.png) [@chappachula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chappachula)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/44 "2014-09-18T07:07:50Z")
> [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > Should a Police Officer be able to give you “a swat on the behind” ? That’s what they do in [Singapore.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_P._Fay) And it’s not just a mild swat–the strokes draw blood. And the streets of Singapore are very clean and safe. Very,very different cultures.\* \*(Or may I say “different strokes for different folks”? 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/45 "2014-09-18T12:37:28Z")
> [@grude](#): > > If the question is inflict some pain with my hand on my kid’s butt with a few swats to stop potentially fatal behavior, or don’t do it I know what the right choice is. Well, is this the BEST way, or just the easiest for you? Again, when does this type of “teaching” become ineffective? When the child turns 13? 16? Or does it stop being effective when it becomes against the law? Why isn’t this type of “teaching” used against your spouse when wrongdoing occurs? ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/46 "2014-09-18T12:43:45Z")
> [@liontamer](#): > > Sometimes attention is needed immediately and a quick swat not only gets the attention now it also does not actually physically damage the child. Well, why don’t you give your buddy a quick swat on the ass, instead of nudging him with your elbow if attention is needed immediately? ---
**Author:** ![grude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47774/32.png) [@grude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grude)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/47 "2014-09-18T17:28:59Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, is this the BEST way, or just the easiest for you? Again, when does this type of “teaching” become ineffective? When the child turns 13? 16? Or does it stop being effective when it becomes against the law? > > Why isn’t this type of “teaching” used against your spouse when wrongdoing occurs? I thought it was pretty clear I was talking about a young toddler, and I laid out the specific circumstances around using it, and I wasn’t spanking for wrongdoing. If my spouse was somehow mentally incapacitated(drugged or delirious) and tried to run out on a highway I’d absolutely physically restrain her until she came to her senses. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/48 "2014-09-18T19:15:14Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That is not what I meant, as I’m sure you can figure out. I can only answer what you said, not what you meant. Sounds like a conversation with my wife. 🙂 > [@](#): > > My guess is you got better at parenting and were able to use non-corporal punishment on your younger kids more effectively I hope I got better with exerience, but that had nothing to do with this scenario. Had my first child been the third, and all else was equal, he still would have needed a quick swat now and then. A good parent, IMHO, determines which discipline works best for each child/issue combnation. Even he didn’t need a swat for every behavioural issue, OTOH there were rare times where it was the only thing tht worked. I would guess that it happened less than a half dozen times between the ages of 4-6, never with anything except a bare hand, never more than one swat, always through clothing. We are by no means talking about beating. In my mind, however, it absolutely constituted a spanking. > [@](#): > > No I didn’t ALLOW them to do it, it was an accident. My point was they were not disfigured or scarred for life, as referenced in the poster’s response to me. As for not being around, I’m sure MANY people got spanked for things that happened when their parents weren’t around, do you really doubt this? And don’t call me Shirley! I’m glad to hear it wasn’t intentional. The rest is a strawman, as I never suggested anything of the sort, Shirley. 😛 > [@](#): > > I believe the argument is that spanking is NEVER the most effective tool in the disciplinary tool box. Virtually every argument that begins with “never” or “always” is wrong from the get go. There is a time and a place for spanking (not beating). If you choose to not use it, that’s your call. Just because you make that call, though, and successfully raise a child (or children), doesn’t mean that your experience appplies to all others. [quote] So I guess you don’t consider the “silent treatment”, or being forced to sleep on the couch, punishment?[.quote] I’m sorry if that’s how your spouse treats you. To answer the question, though, no. I would consider either as childish retaliation, not punishment. > [@](#): > > And in your view, spanking your children loses it’s effectiveness when they turn 18? Or do you simply stop doing it because it becomes against the law? In our society, when a one reaches their 18th birthday (barring mitigating circustances) they are an adult and no other human has the right to use corporal punishment on them, period. In other societies that is not the case. OTOH, almost all societies allow the the government some corporate punishment options. > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > So who are the authorities that you consider it appropriate to inflict corporal punishment on _you_? As stated above, the government - in specific circumstances defined by law. > [@](#): > > If you screw up at work should your boss take you over his knee? Your boss is a disciplinarian whose job it is to enforce the rule of the workplace. Can he spank you? > > Should HR send you out to get a switch for telling an off-color joke? > > Should a bouncer be able to paddle you for being too rowdy at a bar? > > Should a Police Officer be able to give you “a swat on the behind” for speeding? > > If you can’t think of a situation where it is acceptable to teach _you_ through inflicting pain as an adult, why would you consider it acceptable to hurt a child who has no recourse to defend themselves from your aggression? And if you can’t see the absurdity in those scenarios, there is no sense even addressing attempting discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/49 "2014-09-18T19:19:24Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > That is not what I meant, as I’m sure you can figure out. I can only answer what you said, not what you meant. Sounds like a conversation with my wife. 🙂 > [@](#): > > My guess is you got better at parenting and were able to use non-corporal punishment on your younger kids more effectively I hope I got better with exerience, but that had nothing to do with this scenario. Had my first child been the third, and all else was equal, he still would have needed a quick swat now and then. A good parent, IMHO, determines which discipline works best for each child/issue combnation. Even he didn’t need a swat for every behavioural issue, OTOH there were times where it was the only thing tht worked. > [@](#): > > No I didn’t ALLOW them to do it, it was an accident. My point was they were not disfigured or scarred for life, as referenced in the poster’s response to me. As for not being around, I’m sure MANY people got spanked for things that happened when their parents weren’t around, do you really doubt this? And don’t call me Shirley! I’m glad to hear it wasn’t intentional. The rest is a strawman, as I never suggested anything of the sort, Shirley. 😛 > [@](#): > > I believe the argument is that spanking is NEVER the most effective tool in the disciplinary tool box. Virtually every argument that begins with “never” or “always” is wrong from the get go. There is a time and a place for spanking (not beating). If you choose to not use it, that’s your call. Just because you make that call, though, and successfully raise a child (or children), doesn’t mean that your experience appplies to all others any more than mine applies to everyone else. > [@](#): > > So I guess you don’t consider the “silent treatment”, or being forced to sleep on the couch, punishment? I’m sorry if that’s how your spouse treats you. To answer the question, though, no. I would consider either as childish retaliation, not punishment. > [@](#): > > And in your view, spanking your children loses it’s effectiveness when they turn 18? Or do you simply stop doing it because it becomes against the law? In our society, when a one reaches their 18th birthday (barring mitigating circustances) they are an adult and no other human has the right to use corporal punishment on them, period. In other societies that is not the case. OTOH, almost all societies allow the the government some corporate punishment options. > [@Death\_of\_Rats](#): > > So who are the authorities that you consider it appropriate to inflict corporal punishment on _you_? As stated above, the government - in specific circumstances defined by law. > [@](#): > > If you screw up at work should your boss take you over his knee? Your boss is a disciplinarian whose job it is to enforce the rule of the workplace. Can he spank you? > > Should HR send you out to get a switch for telling an off-color joke? > > Should a bouncer be able to paddle you for being too rowdy at a bar? > > Should a Police Officer be able to give you “a swat on the behind” for speeding? > > If you can’t think of a situation where it is acceptable to teach _you_ through inflicting pain as an adult, why would you consider it acceptable to hurt a child who has no recourse to defend themselves from your aggression? And if you can’t see the absurdity in those scenarios, there is no sense even addressing attempting discourse. ---
**Author:** ![raspberry\_hunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/b19c9b/32.png) [@raspberry\_hunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raspberry_hunter)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/50 "2014-09-18T20:20:42Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Again, when does this type of “teaching” become ineffective? When the child turns 13? 16? Or does it stop being effective when it becomes against the law? Around 3 or so – around the time they become verbal and willing to listen to explanations and accept natural consequences for their actions. My daughter was verbal and willing to listen to rules/explanations quite early, so she never needed spanking. (Also she is wired in a way that it was clear spanking would have been counterproductive, but that’s another story. I also have never used timeouts with her for the same reason.) I have to say that I have never heard a good reason to spank, say, an 8-year-old child. At that point I kinda feel that if other things don’t work, spanking isn’t going to work either (except temporarily, while long-term teaching the kid that Might Makes Right). > [@](#): > > Why isn’t this type of “teaching” used against your spouse when wrongdoing occurs? …because my spouse knows better than to run out in the road when there are cars, or to touch a hot stove? (Wow, I would never use silent treatment against either my child or a spouse! Perhaps I am affected by the Great Brain books, where John D. talks about how the silent treatment was _way_ worse than a whipping, because at least the whipping was over quickly.) ---
**Author:** ![liontamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b487fb/32.png) [@liontamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liontamer)\ **Post date:** [September 18, 2014, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/51 "2014-09-18T20:29:06Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, why don’t you give your buddy a quick swat on the ass, instead of nudging him with your elbow if attention is needed immediately? I was about to rant about the idiocy of your post but decided to laugh about it instead. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/52 "2014-09-19T02:25:38Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > Well, why don’t you give your buddy a quick swat on the ass, instead of nudging him with your elbow if attention is needed immediately? I don’t think anyone wants to hear about your sex life, dude. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/53 "2014-09-19T12:05:35Z")
> [@raspberry\_hunter](#): > > Around 3 or so – around the time they become verbal and willing to listen to explanations and accept natural consequences for their actions. My daughter was verbal and willing to listen to rules/explanations quite early, so she never needed spanking. (Also she is wired in a way that it was clear spanking would have been counterproductive, but that’s another story. I also have never used timeouts with her for the same reason.) > > I have to say that I have never heard a good reason to spank, say, an 8-year-old child. At that point I kinda feel that if other things don’t work, spanking isn’t going to work either (except temporarily, while long-term teaching the kid that Might Makes Right). Well, I’m glad you were never forced to hit your defenseless daughter as a way to “teach a lesson” ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/54 "2014-09-19T12:08:33Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > And if you can’t see the absurdity in those scenarios, there is no sense even addressing attempting discourse. If you can’t see the absurdity of being adamant against hitting an adult who can hit back, call the police, or other types of response while simultaneously condoning hitting a small, defenseless child who has no recourse other than to take it, then there is no sense even attempting discourse. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 12:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/55 "2014-09-19T12:09:45Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > I don’t think anyone wants to hear about your sex life, dude. This may have been posted to the wrong message board…🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/56 "2014-09-19T16:34:40Z")
For those who say the difference between hitting an adult and hitting a child is so obvious that it’s ridiculous to even discuss it, well, I don’t see the difference. Yes, you can smack a kid and they’ll usually grow up more or less OK, just like everyone else. Smacking a kid isn’t the worst thing you can do to them, kids would be better with an engaged parent that occasionally smacks them than a parent that doesn’t give a shit about them. So I could smack my kids every now and then, and they’d be fine. And I could smack my wife every now and then, and she’d be fine too. ---
**Author:** ![Doctor\_Jackson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctor_jackson/32/32_2.png) [@Doctor\_Jackson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doctor_Jackson)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/57 "2014-09-19T16:46:32Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > If you can’t see the absurdity of being adamant against hitting an adult who can hit back, call the police, or other types of response while simultaneously condoning hitting a small, defenseless child who has no recourse other than to take it, then there is no sense even attempting discourse. And if you think children are just small adults, then please don’t ever have any. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/58 "2014-09-19T17:02:41Z")
> [@Doctor\_Jackson](#): > > And if you think children are just small adults, then please don’t ever have any. I’m not sure what that has to do with the argument that you shouldn’t hit children. The fact that you must resort to personal insults as a way to defend your practice of hitting children is most troubling to me. ---
**Author:** ![liontamer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/b487fb/32.png) [@liontamer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/liontamer)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/59 "2014-09-19T19:14:23Z")
> [@Slash1972](#): > > I’m not sure what that has to do with the argument that you shouldn’t hit children. The fact that you must resort to personal insults as a way to defend your practice of hitting children is most troubling to me. I really don’t see why you keep equating a swat on the ass with a punch in the face. ---
**Author:** ![Slash1972](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/slash1972/32/6461_2.png) [@Slash1972](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Slash1972)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 2014, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693/60 "2014-09-19T19:35:00Z")
> [@liontamer](#): > > I really don’t see why you keep equating a swat on the ass with a punch in the face. I would like you to please point out where I have used the phrase “a punch in the face” The fact that you must resort to attributing false quotes to me as a way to defend your practice of hitting children is most troubling to me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-how-the-times-are-changing-corporal-punishment/698693.md?page=4)