# Oh. Joy! Just What You Need! Another Katrina Outrage! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 10, 2005, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962 "2005-09-10T06:02:46Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/61 "2005-09-11T05:03:56Z")
> [@](#): > > I made no such conflatation (is that a word?) of the issues at hand, and I think you should retract your unfounded accusations. I think you should go back and read the thread. The thread was discussing a number of people who were harrassed by the Gretna police, forced to remain in the city of New Orleans at gunpoint, and driven from their temporary shelters by the Gretna police entring New Orleans in order to steal their food. You kept interrupting the discussion to wave your arms and shout “looters!” and “arsonists!” Since we were not discussing the separate group of actual looters and arsonists, you were clearly conflating the issues of two separate groups. I do not owe you an apology. I _might_ owe you a lesson in how to conduct a discussion without deliberately confusing issues or inserting red herrings and strawmen. Unfortunately, I suspect that the lesson would be a waste of time for both of us, so I will simply reiterate that your conflation is inappropriate. ---
**Author:** ![Shayna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/shayna/32/17976_2.png) [@Shayna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shayna)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/62 "2005-09-11T05:12:14Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Let’s see, in the first case, people are relying on the mob to help them, in the second, it’s the government. No mention of anybody fucking helping themselves. Can’t have individual responsibility in socialist worker land, I guess. _No mention_ of anybody “fucking” helping themselves, my ass. How about the fact that they all pooled their money to hire buses to take them out of the city, which were then comandeered by the military? How about the fact that they then tried to _walk_ out of the city on their own instead of staying at one of the “shelters/prisons/hellholes” waiting for a government handout? > [@](#): > > **We decided we had to save ourselves.** So we pooled our money and came up with $25,000 to have ten buses come and take us out of the City. Those who did not have the requisite $45.00 for a ticket were subsidized by those who did have extra money. We waited for 48 hours for the buses, spending the last 12 hours standing outside, sharing the limited water, food, and clothes we had. We created a priority boarding area for the sick, elderly and new born babies. We waited late into the night for the “imminent” arrival of the buses. The buses never arrived. We later learned that the minute the arrived to the City limits, they were commandeered by the military. Disingenuous much, **Updike**? It’s either that or illiterate, take your pick. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/63 "2005-09-11T05:19:09Z")
> [@Mama Tiger](#): > > Also, keep in mind that the clothing styles in New Orleans tend to allow sufficient room to hide half an arsenal underneath, so it’s not possible to tell at first glance who’s “heavily armed” and who’s completely innocent. Oh sweet Jesus. So because of their clothing they couldn’t be given the benefit of the doubt and maybe gotten help getting away from the same people this police dept was so afraid of? It’s ok to let babies die because their parents don’t quite look right? Earlier today I saw a video on CNN of a woman and some children and I think an old man being rescued from New Orleans. They were a group that had thought the water might go down but were eventually persuaded to leave. This woman had one white trash bag with stuff in it. Her clothes were not baggy. She wasn’t acting in a threatening manner at all. She was still frisked like a common criminal before she could get on the helicopter. Doesn’t anybody else think that’s shameful? Have vicims of any other earthquake, tornado or hurricane been frisked before getting help? I understood why they would want to search the people coming out of the superdome - although I haven’t heard of anyone trying to find the people that raped and murdered those poor children. But this is just ridiculous. ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/64 "2005-09-11T05:24:37Z")
> [@](#): > > **Mama Tiger** : Also, keep in mind that the clothing styles in New Orleans tend to allow sufficient room to hide half an arsenal underneath, so it’s not possible to tell at first glance who’s “heavily armed” and who’s completely innocent. I would think that in in city or town in this country, regardless of culture or clothing style, law enforcement is required to assume that a person is innocent and has the right to safe and protected passage. Please post signs when America is not that country anymore. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/65 "2005-09-11T05:45:20Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Do you have any evidence, whatsoever, that innocent people on the bridge were being shot at? Or is this just hyperbole time? Do you have any evidence that they _weren’t_ innocent? ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 6:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/66 "2005-09-11T06:31:09Z")
Does Louisiana still follow Napoleonic law in which one is considered guilty until proven innocent or was that just some more BS the nuns taught me? ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 7:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/67 "2005-09-11T07:42:36Z")
_This American Life_ this weekend included an interview with an eyewitness (or maybe two) of the Gretna police preventing people from crossing the bridge at gunpoint, including firing shots in the general direction of the people trying to leave New Orleans. I was only able to hear part of the interview, so I can’t provide any more detail, unfortunately. The program will be available via streaming audio later this week on [thislife.org](http://thislife.org) The two “socialists” and the Charmaine Neville party are not the only witnesses to this behavior. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 9:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/68 "2005-09-11T09:58:19Z")
> [@Donovan](#): > > Bad muffin!! Bad, Bad muffin!! > (Link contains some nsfw pix [at least not safe for MY workplace - no nudity, but… suggestive] above and below video) My apologies. When I first bookmarked the page with the news video of the NOP police personally looting the WalMart (not making needed supplies accessible – just plain old personally looting), the sponsor links on that page were work safe. Being on dial-up, I did not check to see if the sponsor links changed when a few days later I posted the link on this thread. My apologies for not doing so, for that page is certainly no longer work safe, for I certainly did not want to cause anyone any difficulties at work. :o That having been said, is that updike on the third pic on the top? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 10:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/69 "2005-09-11T10:28:19Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Does Louisiana still follow Napoleonic law in which one is considered guilty until proven innocent or was that just some more BS the nuns taught me? You have had BS shat upon you. Lousiana follows a civil code system rather than a common law system that is followed in other US states. This has nothing to do with the burden of proof. In both systems of law in the USA a person is usually assumed to be innocent until proven guilty. ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 11:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/70 "2005-09-11T11:28:27Z")
Here’s a very simplified way of thinking about the main differences between civil and common law. It really comes down to where you find the law. Under civil law, politicians can make law via statutes. Judges find the law in those statutes. Decisions by other judges, and common practices by people, may affect how judges interpret the law they find in the statutes, but ultimately the law is only found in those statutes. Under common law, judges can find law in statutes, but they can also find law sitting under trees, in in the back of old cupboards, or in their washtubs. Under common law, a judge might find that there is a law simply by virtue of people always having done something a certain way. (A really good example is to compare the American constitution to the English constitution – the American one is pretty much written down; whereas only parts of the English constitution are written down in a great many different documents that have traditionally come to be considered of constitutional importance, or are not written down anywhere but are simply understood to be of constitutional importance by tradition/convention.) Also under the common law, when interpreting laws, decisions by judges higher up the ladder are usually supposed to be binding (have the force of law) on lower courts. As far as judge made law goes, under the common law system, judges that don’t want to be bound by a higher judge’s decision simply distinguish that higher decision by pointing out how the circumstances are sufficiently different to the degree that the higher judge’s decision should not be followed; and in the civil law system, although a higher judge’s decision does not usually have to be strictly followed, a lower judge will seriously consider a higher judge’s decision, particularly with a view to how an appeal court might decide the matter. Despite the fundamental difference between the two systems of law in theory, there is very little difference between them in in practice. Governments create more and more laws, and often these laws start off by making a clean slate of old common laws. This makes the common law system more and more like the civil system. Thus there is not a whole heck of a lot of difference between the systems down where the rubber meets the road. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 2:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/71 "2005-09-11T14:54:08Z")
> [@zagloba](#): > > _This American Life_ this weekend included an interview with an eyewitness (or maybe two) of the Gretna police preventing people from crossing the bridge at gunpoint, including firing shots in the general direction of the people trying to leave New Orleans. I was only able to hear part of the interview, so I can’t provide any more detail, unfortunately. The program will be available via streaming audio later this week on [thislife.org](http://thislife.org) > > The two “socialists” and the Charmaine Neville party are not the only witnesses to > this behavior. You beat me to it! I recommend EVERYONE listen to this show. It just aired but I know at least here in south Florida, it is reaired at 6:00 tonight. Watch it, you doubting Thomases! ---
**Author:** ![zagloba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/977dab/32.png) [@zagloba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/zagloba)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/72 "2005-09-11T15:30:49Z")
> [@monstro](#): > > You beat me to it! > > I recommend EVERYONE listen to this show. It just aired but I know at least here in south Florida, it is reaired at 6:00 tonight. > > Watch it, you doubting Thomases! Or listen to it, anyway – the video portion isn’t that interesting. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/73 "2005-09-11T15:34:19Z")
Hehe, I’m such a big-ass dummy sometimes! ---
**Author:** ![Johnny\_L.A](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johnny_l.a/32/1084_2.png) [@Johnny\_L.A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johnny_L.A)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/74 "2005-09-11T17:14:13Z")
Re: the law. I was reading an alternative newspaper in New Orleans in the mid-1990s. It warned visitors that you can be arrested for resisting arrest, even if there was no cause to arrest you in the first place. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2005, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962/75 "2005-09-11T17:49:08Z")
That’s probably pretty much true everywhere, Johhny. The presumption is that no punishment will be meted out before a court trial, so resisting an arrest by a duly commissioned law officer is interference with the performance of his duties. Of course, The Gretna police were not actually attempting to arrest anyone; they were simply wandering in to New Orleans to harrass victims so that no victim would enter Gretna. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-joy-just-what-you-need-another-katrina-outrage/320962.md?page=3)