# "Oh, Mary! Know Any Early Gay Novels?" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 31, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026 "2003-12-31T22:56:11Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/1 "2003-12-31T22:56:11Z")
As noted in another thread, I am reading Geo. Chauncey’s _Gay New York, 1890-1940_. In passing, he mentions such early (1920s/30s) gay-themed novels as Charles Henri Ford’s _The Young and Evil_, Blair Niles’ _Strange Brother_ and Andre Tellier’s _Twilight Men_. They’ve all been reissued and easy to find–has anyone read these, know if they’re any good? Or do you know of any other early (say, pre-1960) gay-themed novels? There must be a few publishers who are bringing these things back out. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/2 "2003-12-31T23:04:44Z")
How important do the gay themes need to be? Do you want it to be the sole focus, main focus, or subsidiary focus of the novel? ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/3 "2003-12-31T23:06:20Z")
E.M. Forster’s _Maurice_ was written in 1913, although it was not published until the 1970’s. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/4 "2003-12-31T23:11:42Z")
Oh, I’ve read _Maurice_, it was good. I’m mostly concerned that it be well-written; not a "you’d only appreciate this if you’re gay"sort of book that must be dutifully ploughed through. ---
**Author:** ![Governor\_Quinn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/d26b3c/32.png) [@Governor\_Quinn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Governor_Quinn)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/5 "2003-12-31T23:15:51Z")
The reason I’m asking is that the only book that I own from the right time-period that deals with a gay subtext (“Helen Zinna Smith” (Evadne Price)'s “Not So Quite…”, originally published in England in 1930) uses it only in passing. ---
**Author:** ![CadburyAngel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c2a13f/32.png) [@CadburyAngel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CadburyAngel)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/6 "2003-12-31T23:35:49Z")
I believe that “42nd Street” is based on a novel in which Julian Marsh is quite definitely gay (it’s his tragic flaw, apparently). Although this survived in a slight form to the Busby Berkeley movie (“Come home with me, I feel lonely.”) it seems to have disappeared completely from the current Broadway run, so I’m not sure how central it is. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/7 "2003-12-31T23:51:58Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Eve_ > As noted in another thread, I am reading Geo. Chauncey’s Gay New York, 1890-1940. Geoffrey Chaucer wrote about New York?! \ Oh. Nevermind. ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 31, 2003, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/8 "2003-12-31T23:56:08Z")
Omigod, I would _love_ to read the novel _42nd Street_, but it seems to have vanished completely–even bookfinder only has the film script, not the novel. ---
**Author:** ![Otto](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/bbe5ce/32.png) [@Otto](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Otto)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/9 "2004-01-01T00:20:31Z")
I’m not making any promises about the quality of any of these books but here goes: Advise and Consent - Allen Drury 1959 Bertram Cope’s Year - Henry Blake Fuller 1919 The Gaudy Image - William Talsman 1958 Alfred Hitchcock’s Rope (novelization of the film) 1948 Aubade - Kenneth Martin 1957 Miss Knight and Others (short story collection) - Robert McAlmon c. 1930 Iolaus: An Anthology of Friendship - Edward Carpenter 1902 The City and The Pillar - Gore Vidal 1948 ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/10 "2004-01-01T00:40:44Z")
Pre-1960 gay-themed novels? There’s Radclyffe Hall’s 1928 book “The Well of Loneliness”. It’s about a young noblewoman named Stephen (her parents wanted a boy) who falls in love with another woman. Gore Vidal wrote “The City and the Pillar” in 1948, about this young man named Jim who leaves his hometown to find the boy he had fallen in love with. The fourth book of Marcel Proust’s “Rememberence of Things Past”, titled “Sodome et Gomorrhe”, which usually takes the English title “The Cities of the Plain” was published in 1927. There are a number of gay characters and homosexual relationships. Mary Renault wrote “The Charioteer” in 1953, about a wounded soldier in a WWII hospital who falls in love with his male nurse. She also wrote “The Last of the Wine” in 1956, which takes place in ancient Greece, and is about two male friends. I don’t know if it’s ever stated that they have a homosexual relationship, but it’s implied. Alan Drury’s book “Advise and Consent” (1959), which is a political novel about the nomination of a controversial Secretary of State, has homosexuality as a subplot. One of the main opponents of the nominee is a conservative Republican Senator from Utah named Brigham Anderson. Supporters of the nominee discovered that he had a homosexual affair while in the army during WWII and blackmail him with that knowledge to get him to withdraw his opposition. In fear of that knowledge getting out, he commits suicide I hope those help. ---
**Author:** ![Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Tapioca\_Dextrin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tapioca_Dextrin)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/11 "2004-01-01T01:16:15Z")
How about William Burroughs’ _Queer_? Can’t get much gayer than that ---
**Author:** ![Freudian\_Slit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@Freudian\_Slit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freudian_Slit)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/12 "2004-01-01T01:28:09Z")
How about Meyer Levin’s “Compulsion”? It’s a novelization of the Leopold/Loeb murder case (which the film “Rope”, already mentioned, also is loosely based upon). Also–“Brideshead Revisited” definitely had a gay theme running through it. (God, those Brits had it going on at Oxford back in the day!" ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/13 "2004-01-01T01:29:03Z")
The Well of Loneliness by Radclyffe Hall was written in the 30s. See also titles by Christopher Isherwood, Jean Genet. ---
**Author:** ![Martha\_Medea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/43a26b/32.png) [@Martha\_Medea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martha_Medea)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/14 "2004-01-01T01:31:35Z")
Sorry, missed the previous reference to the Well of Loneliness, please ignore my mention of it and the wrong date to boot… ---
**Author:** ![Gyrate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gyrate/32/3588_2.png) [@Gyrate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gyrate)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 1:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/15 "2004-01-01T01:37:22Z")
Only secondary characters, but certainly early: Alexander Dumas’ _The Count of Monte Cristo_ has two young female characters who are clearly a lesbian couple (the attempts of the father of one of them to marry her off are an important part of the plot). Surprisingly, they come out a lot better in the end than most of the characters in the story. ---
**Author:** ![Papermache\_Prince](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f05b48/32.png) [@Papermache\_Prince](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Papermache_Prince)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 4:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/16 "2004-01-01T04:47:13Z")
_Fresh Air_’s [August 25th, 2003](http://freshair.npr.org/day_fa.jhtml?display=day&todayDate=08/25/2003) show featured a repeat of a December 8th, 1999 interview with Ann Bannon (pseudonym) who wrote lesbian pulp fiction in the '50s ( Odd Girl Out, I Am a Woman and Journey to a Woman). These books have recently been reprinted. The same show rebroadcast a June 19th, 2003 interview with Marijane Meaker. “Her new book is about her two-year affair with writer Patricia Highsmith. The two met in the 1950s at a Greenwich Village lesbian bar. Both were writing lesbian pulp fiction novels under pseudonyms.” ---
**Author:** ![DMark](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e68b1a/32.png) [@DMark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DMark)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 9:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/17 "2004-01-01T09:06:05Z")
Way back in the 70’s, I remember reading a NY Times review of a book written in the 30’s about Gay pirates…I even remember the photo of an old poster (1800’s) that was plastered about NYC to warn 12 year old boys not to associate with pirates. It wasn’t a Gay book per se, but it dealt with the fact that most pirates were probably homosexual and that they would pick up 12 year old’s to be pegboys. The review went on to say that despite the Hollywood myths, it was common knowlege that pirates were mostly homosexual outcasts. It wasn’t common knowlege to me, which is probably why I still remember the review of the book. Sorry, but I cannot remember the name of the book anymore. I believe it was a scholarly, non-fiction book by some professor at a University, but that is not a lot to go on. If you should, by some miracle, find the review or the book, let me know! ---
**Author:** ![Miss\_Mapp](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miss_mapp/32/369_2.png) [@Miss\_Mapp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miss_Mapp)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 11:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/18 "2004-01-01T11:31:56Z")
What about James Baldwin’s _Giovanni’s Room_ (1956)? He also _Another Country_, but I think that’s later, in the '60’s. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/19 "2004-01-01T14:31:15Z")
Gay Boys in Bondage by William Shakespeare ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [January 1, 2004, 2:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026/20 "2004-01-01T14:34:08Z")
I see the Feminist Press has just re-released the wonderful, forgotten Faith Baldwin’s [Skyscraper](http://www.feministpress.org/Book/index.cfm?GCOI=55861100694980). There must be some gay press re-releasing some of the 1920s/30s gay pulp novels! Anyone know of any? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-mary-know-any-early-gay-novels/222026.md?page=2)