# Oh my fucking god. I cannot stand the far left **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 8, 2024, 4:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406 "2024-08-08T04:27:51Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/161 "2024-08-08T21:22:57Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I miss 20 years ago when people like me and dennis kucinich were the far left. > > Medicare for all, gay rights, higher minimum wage, integration of minorities into society, progressive taxation. What are you talking about? Even twenty years ago, those were not “far left” positions: they were mainstream liberal. And by “integration of minorities into society”, you mean… > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > This is somewhat off topic, but how do you feel about the subset of black people who have responded to the civil rights movement that gave them freedoms and opportunities by embracing criminality, out of wedlock pregnancy, rejecting education and literacy as being ‘too white’, etc? > > Sometimes civil rights movements have bad effects for some people, and these people push the civil rights movement backwards instead of forwards. Oh. You mean “blame a subset of criminal and reactionary individuals among a minority group for systemic problems in achieving social equality and justice for the group as a whole”. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/162 "2024-08-08T21:23:23Z")
That makes no sense. The misery and death within countries ruled by the far left such as the USSR, Communist China, North Korea, Cambodia, etc. is the highest in history for any ideology. The fact that the far left is still apologized for or excused by anyone in the modern era is bizarre. ---
**Author:** ![Tfletch1](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tfletch1/32/5340_2.png) [@Tfletch1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tfletch1)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/163 "2024-08-08T21:24:07Z")
> [@Der\_Trihs](#): > > It’s a Dungeons and Dragons reference, [in-setting](https://forgottenrealms.fandom.com/wiki/Demihuman) “demihuman” means dwarves, elves, gnomes, and halflings. That’s demifantasy. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/164 "2024-08-08T21:24:12Z")
Thanks for letting us know how “left” one’s gotta be to be considered “far left” in your book. 🙄 ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/165 "2024-08-08T21:25:07Z")
Oh, right, I always forget that communism has never really been tried and the definition of far left is so specific that it applies to no one. It would be nice if the far left were so pedantic with their definitions of anyone to the right of Mao or Stalin. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/166 "2024-08-08T21:34:54Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > Oh, right, I always forget that communism has never really been tried and the definition of far left is so specific that it applies to no one. There are lots of valid ways that one could define the term “far left”, but you’re not using any of them. Your problem here is that you’re disingenuously trying to define it specifically enough to mean actual genocidal communist dictatorships, but also broadly enough to mean mainstream American progressives who are unflinchingly opposed to genocidal communist dictatorships. That’s not a reasoned argument, that’s just a propaganda trick. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/167 "2024-08-08T21:37:01Z")
Apropos of nothing in particular, does anyone remember Cyndi Lauper’s rendition of “True Colors”? ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/168 "2024-08-08T21:51:30Z")
Thank you for this thoughtful and insightful post, Ulfreida. That’s me waving near the edge of the earth. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/169 "2024-08-08T21:51:33Z")
Examples of “far left” positions I’ve seen advocated online (as examples of what I consider actual extreme left positions to be like): Forcibly deporting all non-Native Americans from North and South America. Expertise is a lie, everyone is equal and all jobs should be assigned by sortition (aka, a lottery). The housing shortage can be fixed by the people building their own housing. People like nature pictures because of Western Imperialism. Women are shorter than men because they are systematically starved. Fixing issues like paralysis is bigoted. Once the Communist Revolution comes it will endure forever with no need for enforcement, because no one would disagree with Communism without capitalist coercion and manipulation. The only reason the USSR broke up is CIA subversion. The people of Ukraine should be exterminated as fascists. A nuclear war is desirable because Communism would inevitably arise from the ashes. In my experience the far left has positions a _lot_ more extreme than “gay rights” or whatever. That’s what makes them extremists. The reasonable, rational leftists aren’t “far” left, for the same reason; their reasonableness and rationality disqualifies them. ---
**Author:** ![DavidNRockies](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/davidnrockies/32/6279_2.png) [@DavidNRockies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DavidNRockies)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/170 "2024-08-08T21:58:23Z")
FYI … AOC \<\> Pol Pot. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/171 "2024-08-08T22:00:29Z")
I think there is a difference between “far left” and “extremism,” and it is similar to the difference between “radical” and “militant,” or “strategy and tactics.” Being on the “far left” is a matter of “how democratic and socialist you advocate going” while “extremism” is more about “whatever my goal, I advocate pursuing it fanatically.” So even those in the centre can be “extremists”–like, “if country X doesn’t open its doors to trade with us, we should bomb it.” ---
**Author:** ![Wesley\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wesley_clark/32/20581_2.png) [@Wesley\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wesley_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/172 "2024-08-08T22:02:20Z")
> [@Kimstu](#): > > Oh. You mean “blame a subset of criminal and reactionary individuals among a minority group for systemic problems in achieving social equality and justice for the group as a whole”. I mean that not everyone is automatically advancing the cause of civil rights. If you actually talk to black people, you’ll find a lot who are upset about the subset of black people who cause dysfunction. I’ve met quite a few gay men who felt some subcultures in the LGBTQ community were extremely toxic and doing more harm than good. Just as those of us in the left feel that subcultures in the far left are doing more harm than good. Whether you lack the nuance to understand any of this is not my concern. And your approval isn’t important enough for me to change my behavior to obtain it. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/173 "2024-08-08T22:07:33Z")
> [@Tfletch1](#): > > > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > > > This is somewhat off topic, but how do you feel about the subset of black people who have responded to the civil rights movement that gave them freedoms and opportunities by embracing criminality, out of wedlock pregnancy, rejecting education and literacy as being ‘too white’, etc? > > I mostly lurk on this board, but have been here for several years. I know I’ve seen your posts. I never before pegged you as a racist, but this paragraph is your standard racist trope right there. And while we’re talking about this, it’s worth pointing out that [the standard conservative-centrist trope of large numbers of black Americans disdaining academic achievement on the grounds that it’s “acting white” has been repeatedly debunked.](https://www.vox.com/identities/2017/1/5/14175116/acting-white-myth-black-kids-academics-school-achievement-gap-debunked) > [@](#): > > You’ve probably heard it before: Too many black students don’t do well in school because they think being smart means “acting white.” […] > > While the “acting white” theory used to be pretty popular to bring up in debates about black academic achievement there’s a catch: It’s not true. > > At best, it’s a very creative interpretation of inadequate research and anecdotal evidence. At worst, it’s a messy attempt to transform the near-universal stigma attached to adolescent nerdiness into an indictment of black culture, while often ignoring the systemic inequality that contributes to the country’s racial achievement gap. […] > > The “acting white” theory also validates a particular social conservative worldview by placing the blame for disparate academic outcomes squarely on the backward ideas of black children and black cultural pathology, instead of on harder-to-tackle factors like socioeconomic inequality, [implicit racial bias](http://www.vox.com/2014/12/26/7443979/racism-implicit-racial-bias) on the part of teachers, segregated and underresourced schools, and the school discipline disparities that create what’s been called the [school-to-prison pipeline](http://www.vox.com/2015/2/24/8101289/school-discipline-race). […] > > A prime example of a shaky study on this topic, according to Toldson, was Harvard economist Roland G. Fryer’s 2006 research paper [“Acting White: The Social Price Paid by the Best and the Brightest Minority Students\*.“\*](http://educationnext.org/actingwhite/) […] > > But the numbers didn’t actually add up to support the “acting white” theory, Toldson said. To start, the most popular black students in his study were the ones with 3.5 GPAs, and students with 4.0s had about as many friends as those with 3.0s. The least popular students? Those with less than a 2.5 GPA. > > It seemed that the “social price” paid by the lowest-achieving black students was actually far greater than the price in popularity paid by the highest academic achievers. […] > > Fryer’s research found that the very highest-achieving black kids were the least popular — but this likely had much less to do with beliefs about acting white and more to do with the fact that the very smartest kids of any race tend to suffer social stigma. […] > > In a 2003 study titled [“It’s not a black thing: Understanding the Burden of Acting White and Other Dilemmas of High Achievement,“](http://www.cpc.unc.edu/pubs/2817) published in the _American Sociological Review_ , researchers concluded that the smartest black and white students actually had similar experiences and that the stigma was similar across cultures […] TL;DR: - Do black American teens as a group look down on being smart or achieving academic success? No. - Do some black American teens get bullied for “acting white”? Yes, but on the basis of social behavior—how you dress, what your interests are, where you live, and other aspects of your overall social “coolness factor”—rather than whether or not you’re good at school. - Do some very high-achieving black students get bullied for “acting white”? Yes, but again, it’s because of their perceived general “uncoolness”, not because of their high academic achievement. - Do very high-achieving black students get bullied by their same-race peers more than very high-achieving white students? No. Across all races, very high academic achievement often correlates with other interests that are seen as “nerdy” and “uncool”. The most dedicated bookworms are very seldom the most popular kids, whatever their race. So the idea that black Americans themselves are significantly impeding the cause of racial equality by fostering some kind of genuinely influential “oppositional culture” that tries to sabotage black students’ academic achievement on the grounds that it’s “acting white”, while it may appeal to a lot of white Americans who don’t want to engage with the realities of persistent systemic racism. is a myth. ---
**Author:** ![Chingon](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chingon/32/17645_2.png) [@Chingon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chingon)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/174 "2024-08-08T22:09:56Z")
Whew, white fragility is a helluva drug. In a couple of years @Wesley_Clark will be fully radicalized and MAGA. He’s the perfect example of how easy it is to convert old “liberal” white dudes to Trump. ---
**Author:** ![Der\_Trihs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/der_trihs/32/233_2.png) [@Der\_Trihs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Der_Trihs)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/175 "2024-08-08T22:12:56Z")
I disagree. Once somebody’s positions go far enough, they inevitable require fanaticism due to going against both nearly everyone’s desires and against reality itself. A random person isn’t going to suddenly capable of brain surgery just because they _believe really hard_ it should wok like that. And if they try, they’ll kill people. If that’s not “fanatic”, it’s a good enough imitation for my standards. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/176 "2024-08-08T22:20:38Z")
And that fanaticism, which does involve vociferously denying obvious realities, makes the fanatic look like an unhinged loon. ---
**Author:** ![Kropotkin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kropotkin/32/18045_2.png) [@Kropotkin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kropotkin)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/177 "2024-08-08T22:23:55Z")
My point is fanaticism has nothing to with “far left” or “far right” or “centre.” Those are questions of power, economics, organization. Fanaticism is about how one holds those ideas and what one is prepared to do about them. A lefty British historian, I forget who, not E.P. Thompson or Eric Hobsbawm, was accused of having “extreme views.” He replied, “I do, but I hold them moderately.” Fanaticism is not a necessary part of “extreme” left or right or centre views, but anyone in any spot on the political spectrum may well be an extremist. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/178 "2024-08-08T22:25:49Z")
> [@Chingon](#): > > Whew, white fragility is a helluva drug. It’s not even new. Nothing I’ve seen here really surprises me about the OP. At best, he’s been naive about some issues to the point of denial. At worst, well, we see some of that here. Here are some choice quotes from nearly _2 decades_ ago showing not a lot has changed in the intervening years from somebody who self-described himself in the OP as being far left at about that time period. 🤦‍♂️ An incredibly…naive …post from 2005 in a closed thread (link deliberately broken: \https://boards.straightdope.com/t/are-jews-really-smarter/307900/26) > [@Wesley Clark](#): > > This isn’t the 1930s, its not like people are going to jump on info showing rates of X,Y,Z vary along ethnic or racial lines to justify racism or anything. I think everyone here is secure enough in the idea that racial and ethnic prejudice is wrong to do something like that. And from 2006 (another deliberately broken link \https://boards.straightdope.com/t/in-which-i-ruminate-on-the-endemic-nature-of-racism-and-ponder-why-some-cant-see-it/357617/53 ): > [@Wesley Clark](#): > > I personally find modern american racism to be a mild nuisance at best. Compared to the genocides that have occured due to nationality or ethnicity being more likely to be pulled over by the police a few times is a mild problem. The internet (and sometimes some of the long time poster memories) never fucking forgets. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/179 "2024-08-08T22:30:50Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > vociferously denying obvious realities Like what? Be specific, or some of us will conclude that we know what you’re not talking about. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406/180 "2024-08-08T22:31:09Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > If you actually talk to black people, you’ll find a lot who are upset about the subset of black people who cause dysfunction. If you actually talk to any people, you’ll find a lot who are upset about the behavior of criminal and otherwise antisocial individuals, true. But to focus on being upset with those individuals specifically for “pushing the movement backwards”, or “sabotaging progress”, etc., is an attempt to duck responsibility on the part of mainstream majority culture. Individual black criminals, and even gangs of black criminals, as reprehensible as their behavior may be, are not doing anywhere near as much to sabotage progress on racial justice and equality as white racists are still doing. > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > I’ve met quite a few gay men who felt some subcultures in the LGBTQ community were extremely toxic and doing more harm than good. Sure, just like in any other community. But, again, if we’re focusing on these “subcultures” as the most salient obstacle to overcoming persistent homophobia in American society, we’re not being honest about the problem. The people who are doing by far the most “more harm than good” to LGBTQ people are not any subculture of LGBTQ people themselves. If we disapprove of the behavior of any particular “subculture” in any group, let’s criticize them for the specific things we think they’re doing wrong, not in general for “holding their people back”. That’s just a deflection (albeit often an unconscious one) to allow mainstream culture to shift the chief responsibility for persistent discrimination onto the discriminated-against group itself, in the guise of some “subset” of it. “If you people would only fix your ‘subset’, you wouldn’t be pushing your movement backward so much.” “I know it isn’t bigoted to say this, because if you talk to a lot of those people you’ll find that they don’t approve of that ‘subset’ either.” > [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Whether you lack the nuance to understand any of this is not my concern. No, I don’t think I’m the one whose lack of “nuance” is causing your problems here. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-fucking-god-i-cannot-stand-the-far-left/1005406.md?page=10)