# Oh my GAWD! (Creating human life in a lab) **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2000, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467 "2000-10-18T21:48:16Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/21 "2000-10-19T20:27:08Z")
I’m not a biologist, but I’d be very interested in knowing how they overcame such problems as difference in body chemistry, enzymes, blood types, etc between the human and pig celluar material. If they ended the experiment after only 32 cell divisions, I wonder what shape the embryo would have taken, given its genetic heritage and its porcine cell structure. I’m sorry, I couldn’t view that “creation” (for lack of a better word) as alive, except in the strictest sense of the word. I’m sure it didnt’have soul or any form of awareness that would IMHO count it as human. ---
**Author:** ![ren](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ed655f/32.png) [@ren](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ren)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/22 "2000-10-19T20:40:39Z")
> [@](#): > > Is the “guar” any relation to that thing I sometimes see on ingredients labels, “guar gum”? The “chewy” cow lives on the island of Carnuba (you know, where they make that wax?) ---
**Author:** ![malden](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7bcc69/32.png) [@malden](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/malden)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/23 "2000-10-19T20:46:31Z")
[Kent Brockman voice ON] I, for one, welcome our new Pig-Man rulers! [Kent Brockman voice OFF] ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/24 "2000-10-19T21:46:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by betenoir \* > I figuered they meant mitochondrial DNA. Could be, but then, why on earth would they call it _pig_ DNA? Mitochondrial dna is completely different from dna for the animal itself. That being said, it just makes the thing seem all the more sensational. The only problem I can think of with having pig mitochondria is that possibly due to pigs having shorter lifespans, pig mitochondria might degrade faster then human mitochondria (apparently mitochondria degrade with a person’s age, over repeated replications) > [@](#): > > Well but, cows and guars are WAY closer then people and pigs. Just for a start pigs have a lot shorter gestation period. And embryos, sensitive little buggers, are know for spontaneously aborting if the least little thing isn’t right. I don’t think you could make it comfortable. How short _is_ a pig’s gestation? Could it have just been premature? In any case, I think the point is that it wouldn’t have been non-viable in either. It probably would have been quite viable in a human mother. > [@](#): > > Plus the DNA interaction. I don’t know what they do about the mitochondrial DNA in the case of other clonings (is 100% guar or 97% guar, 3% cow?) but since the mitochondria regulates the break down of complex nutrients during respiration (or so I’ve heard) you end up with a human with the metabolism of a pig. Do we really want that? Don’t mitochondria just turn sugar into ATP? It’s been sooo many years since we covered Kreb’s cycle. The only thing I’d be worried about is a human with the lifespan of a pig… ---
**Author:** ![Ashtar](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc29f/32.png) [@Ashtar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtar)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/25 "2000-10-19T22:36:33Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by andros \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > 100% guar or 97% guar, 3% cow? > > The latter, and you’re right about mitochondrial DNA. The new guars are not, and never will be, “real” guar–there will be cow DNA in 'em until the species dies off. Not that it makes much difference. Nucleotides are nucleotides. It’s not like there are little signs on the base pairs labeled “COW–not for use in guars!” > > I’m just terrified that someone might someday mix in some frog DNA and then all the dinosaurs will change sex . . . > > **Ashley** , any responses? \*\* I’m not a genetecist or a biologist (yet), so I’m afraid to add too much else without having the proper knowledge. 🙂 But I’m enjoying reading all your responses. I’ve been hearing from a lot of you out there that it is possible that neither a human or pig mother would be viable to support the embryo–but who needs a womb at all? Is it possible that they could support the embryo in laboratory conditions until it was developed enough to feed intravenously? I don’t really have any religious qualms about experiments like these. I think it’d be pretty damn cool to start making some wicked human hybrids if it were viable given the development of the technology and the ethical support of the community. It’s too bad that genetic experiments usually only apply to the newly born. That is–unless the advent of Gene Therapy provides otherwise. Which brings another question to mind–is it true? Can Gene Therapy supposedly change somebody’s genetic code while they are still living? I’ve heard stories about the possibility of gene therapy being used to circumvent those naughty genes that cause predisposition to cancer and family-related illnesses! -Ashley ---
**Author:** ![Bareedy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bareedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bareedy)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/26 "2000-10-19T22:41:18Z")
Can anyone say “The Island of Dr. Moroe”? Why pig of all things? They needed to make a human race that can detect truffles easily? The scary part in the article is not what these labs told the press, but what they haven’t told them. I’m willing to bet my last dollar that there’s some animal-man feutos floating around in a jar somewhere out there. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 11:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/27 "2000-10-19T23:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Ashtar \* > It’s too bad that genetic experiments usually only apply to the newly born. That is–unless the advent of Gene Therapy provides otherwise. Which brings another question to mind–is it true? Can Gene Therapy supposedly change somebody’s genetic code while they are still living? I’ve heard stories about the possibility of gene therapy being used to circumvent those naughty genes that cause predisposition to cancer and family-related illnesses! Gene therapy is currently uses retroviruses to insert code into fully developed humans (according to my layman’s knowledge). This doesn’t affect all your cells, only a few in one area and while this allows you to produce things you didn’t have before, it doesn’t eliminate nasty effects in your genes at the moment although it may compensate for them. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2000, 11:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/28 "2000-10-19T23:37:29Z")
AerynSun said: > [@](#): > > However, I just went looking for it, and I can’t find anything at [Skepticnews.com](http://Skepticnews.com) or at [Healthcentral.com](http://Healthcentral.com) - David B, was I dreaming? (And BTW thanks for giving this a more coherent title.) Hmmmm. I don’t recall anything about it. I don’t think I posted it (and I post pretty much all the HealthCentral stuff). And, regarding the title, thanks. It’s nice to be appreciated! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/29 "2000-10-20T00:15:04Z")
Kyberneticist wrote: > [@](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by betenoir \* > > since the mitochondria regulates the break down of complex nutrients during respiration (or so I’ve heard) you end up with a human with the metabolism of a pig. > > Don’t mitochondria just turn sugar into ATP? Yep. And not just any old sugar, either – it has to be glucose. The differences between human mitochondria, pig mitochondria, and even sequoia-tree mitochondria are pretty trivial, from what I remember. ---
**Author:** ![Kyberneticist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/dc4da7/32.png) [@Kyberneticist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyberneticist)\ **Post date:** [October 20, 2000, 1:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/30 "2000-10-20T01:03:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by tracer \* > Kyberneticist wrote: > > > [@](#): > > > > > [@](#): > > > > > > \*Originally posted by betenoir \* > > > since the mitochondria regulates the break down of complex nutrients during respiration (or so I’ve heard) you end up with a human with the metabolism of a pig. > > > > Don’t mitochondria just turn sugar into ATP? > > Yep. And not just any old sugar, either – it has to be glucose. > The differences between human mitochondria, pig mitochondria, and even sequoia-tree mitochondria are pretty trivial, from what I remember. I’ve always thought it rather bizaare that trees have chlorophylls to convert CO[sub]2[/sub]+H[sub]2[/sub]O+energy into C[sub]6[/sub]H[sub]12[/sub]O[sub]6[/sub] and mitochondria to do the exact opposite. Granted, it’s nice to have some sugar when you’re short on sun, but why not just have a specialized organelle to convert ADP plus a phosphate and a little sun into ATP? Then you could just have extra ATP lying around to tide you through the night. After all, plants have slow metabolisms… Granted, some plants have to go a lot longer then a few hours without significant sunlight but still, wouldn’t it be sufficiently efficient for at least a few plants to have evolved it? ---
**Author:** ![betenoir](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/258eb7/32.png) [@betenoir](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/betenoir)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/31 "2000-10-21T17:22:36Z")
The “human with the metabolism of a pig” thing was just a joke actually. But if the 3% pig genes are trivial, then is this not just a way to study human cloning without breaking the law? Yeah, why pigs?? Ashtar, Bareedy, nobody has brought any creature (well any creature that gestates in a womb of course) to term outside of the womb. Wombs are more complicated than they look. ---
**Author:** ![edwino](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/35a633/32.png) [@edwino](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/edwino)\ **Post date:** [October 21, 2000, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/32 "2000-10-21T18:37:19Z")
The mitochondrion only contains 20 odd genes. These are not trivial genes. There are known mitochondrial diseases, usually affecting nervous system or muscle. This is the first reason that I believe this thing wouldn’t be viable. Another reason is due to egg-coat proteins. In order for implantation in the uterus, the egg needs to have specific coat proteins on its surface so it can adhere. In the pig-man, you will have half (from the mother, who made the egg) and half (from the embryo, who is transcribing genes which make its way to the surface). So, if you use a pig womb, you will have to worry about the embryonic proteins not working, and vice versa. The last reason is that the entire cytoplasmic machinery – besides mitochondria – are all pig. That means microtubules and spindles, actin, lysosomes, liposomes, peroxisomes, endoplasmic reticulum, Golgi apparatus, etc are all from the pig. The human embryo begins to express its proteins after fertilization. The first few cell divisions depend almost entirely on maternal machinery – that is why it probably could make it through 5 divisions to 32 cells. In the first few cell divisions, the egg does not grow in size at all, only surface area. Maybe this is because only maternal proteins are required. I think that when newly made embryonic proteins (human) start interacting with the pig ones, things will stop working. And if you have implanted into a pig womb, then the human proteins in the cytotrophoblast and syncytiotrophoblast are very different from pigs and probably will not be able to correctly interact with the maternal blood supply. Did some reading on that once… Granted, pig and human are relatively close evolutionarily, but still, I think there are enough differences to halt the process… ---
**Author:** ![Baraqiyal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/ecccb3/32.png) [@Baraqiyal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baraqiyal)\ **Post date:** [October 23, 2000, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467/33 "2000-10-23T12:04:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by AerynSun \* > \*\*I could swear that I saw an article on this in Skeptic News - a link to [HealthCentral.com](http://HealthCentral.com). The article quoted the researchers as saying that the experiment was designed in such a way that the embryos would never have been able to grow into anything viable. > > However, I just went looking for it, and I can’t find anything at [Skepticnews.com](http://Skepticnews.com) or at [Healthcentral.com](http://Healthcentral.com) - **David B** , was I dreaming? (And BTW thanks for giving this a more coherent title.) \*\* I remember Dr. Edell talking about it on his radio show many months ago and he did say he put the story on HealthCentral. He always says that but doesn’t always do it, but I think I found the story: [http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/deanfulltexttopics.cfm?id=9928](http://www.healthcentral.com/drdean/deanfulltexttopics.cfm?id=9928) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-my-gawd-creating-human-life-in-a-lab/37467.md?page=1)