# Oh No! 2009 record amounts of new US wind power **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702 "2010-04-11T05:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/181 "2010-04-12T21:54:41Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] Take care, sir, you are dangerously close to angering the Gay Avenger! [/QUOTE] _sigh_ That’s what I get for posting drunk. Serves me right… [QUOTE=levdrakon] Why don’t you use those two or three remaining brain cells you have to read and think instead of just typing random bullshit. I said if they need the electricity they’d keep the plant running but as usual you demonstrate your complete lack of comprehension of even the most basic English words. [/QUOTE] So, rubbing my two remaining brain cells together, your point is…what exactly? Perhaps if you spelled it out, it would help. You seem to be saying you are good if the Vermont Yankee nuclear power plant continues operations, and you are good if they don’t…but if they don’t then everyone who supports nuclear power will claim it’s some sort of hippy conspiracy. Or something. Does that sum up your position, or did you have anything to actually add? Perhaps it’s that your intellect is simply dizzying to one so stupid as myself…or, perhaps you are just blowing a lot of smoke and bullshit. It’s hard to say, since you seem to type a lot without actually saying much that doesn’t involve a lot of straw. -XT ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 12:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/182 "2010-04-13T00:44:33Z")
[Germany’s “success”.](http://www.city-journal.org/2010/eon0412cj.html) ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/183 "2010-04-13T04:09:54Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > So…where is Vermont going to put 2000+ wind towers to replace it? > > -XT Somewhere it’s windy within 1000 miles of Vermont? ---
**Author:** ![Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/aji_de_gallina/32/260_2.png) [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aji_de_Gallina)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/184 "2010-04-13T04:38:27Z")
Of the installed capacity of 10, 000 megawatts, what is the actual average output? ---
**Author:** ![FoieGrasIsEvil](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/foiegrasisevil/32/16638_2.png) [@FoieGrasIsEvil](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FoieGrasIsEvil)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/185 "2010-04-13T04:52:05Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Of the installed capacity of 10, 000 megawatts, what is the actual average output? Whatever gets the Delorean travelling through time. Multiplied by a power of four. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/186 "2010-04-13T13:35:46Z")
I’m going to repeat my question from last page: What’s the current status of research on the long-term climatological effects of removing significant amounts of energy (by way of turbines) from the atmosphere and hydrosphere? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/187 "2010-04-13T13:58:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m going to repeat my question from last page: What’s the current status of research on the long-term climatological effects of removing significant amounts of energy (by way of turbines) from the atmosphere and hydrosphere? I think that your bid to look more foolish than **The Second Stone** may be successful. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/188 "2010-04-13T14:11:56Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m going to repeat my question from last page: What’s the current status of research on the long-term climatological effects of removing significant amounts of energy (by way of turbines) from the atmosphere and hydrosphere? The Earth slows down and spins off into space? :dubious: What are the long term climatological effects of all those buildings, trees and mountains blocking the wind and removing that energy from the atmosphere? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 2:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/189 "2010-04-13T14:21:56Z")
I can light a cigarette without having to cup my hands. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/190 "2010-04-13T16:07:51Z")
Thanks for the laugh…really, I needed it. I’m all in favour of renewable energy, but sadly there is nothing yet out, that will provide the power we currently need. There is certainly things we can do to use less energy, even [a fucking search request with Google uses energy](http://www.google.com/corporate/green/datacenters/) and kills plants… but I am not going back to gather and hunt my food in the forest, sit in a cave around a fire to get some form of heat and fear that the girl I shag tonight gets pregnant, because some eco-geek turned off the feckin power plant for the pharmacy industry. Interesting thing is, that Bio-Diesel, is killing the god damn rainforest…but it contains the word BIO, so it’s good right? > **[From Rainforest To Biodiesel](http://peakenergy.blogspot.com/2005/05/from-rainforest-to-biodiesel.html)** > > The Herald has an article today about the accelerating destruction of the Brazilian rainforest, which is apparently being turned into soy b... [http://www.greenhealthwatch.com/newsstories/newslatest/latest0701/biodiesel-destructive.html](http://www.greenhealthwatch.com/newsstories/newslatest/latest0701/biodiesel-destructive.html) It’s so alternative, that even the Treehuggers don’t like it. Solar energy used Oil to produce the thing, yet I’m still having it, since after installing it, it’s FREE. Less cost for energy and that’s the main reason anyone switches to stuff like Solar. Things are improving, to become: a: more energy efficient b: renewable energy becomes better every time But in the meantime, don’t ask me to turn off my TV, Computer, Lights, Fridge, Freezer or the heating off because some damn tree is dying. If I chop the tree to make a fire, it’s dead as well. ---
**Author:** ![Doughbag](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/aeb1de/32.png) [@Doughbag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doughbag)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 4:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/191 "2010-04-13T16:39:33Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > That, in combination with a renewable energy plan like Germany’s would have drastic benefits beginning now, and now seems to be the pie in the sky you nuke nuts are dreaming about. I missed that one… WTF? The German plan? Jez! Are you insane? The German plan, do you actually know what that is? They price the crap out of electricity, so it becomes actually efficent to use Solarpower and buying equipment with a lower power rating. Yes, you can pay easily a €100 more for an energy efficent fridge… Here are some [tariffs](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electricity_tariff) I spill it out for you: US per 1kWh 9.28 cents Germany per 1kWh 30.66 cents read some other [Forum](http://www.toytowngermany.com/lofi/index.php/t53618.html) ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/192 "2010-04-13T17:57:14Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > I’m going to repeat my question from last page: What’s the current status of research on the long-term climatological effects of removing significant amounts of energy (by way of turbines) from the atmosphere and hydrosphere? The current status is that no one knows, which will pretty much be the current status for quite some time to come, is my guess. However, a good background of the issue can be found here: [http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16115.full](http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16115.full) > [@](#): > > Although the generation and dissipation of kinetic energy is a minor (≈0.3%) component of global energy fluxes, the winds mediate much larger energy fluxes by transporting heat and moisture. Therefore, alteration of kinetic energy fluxes can have much greater climatic effects than alteration of radiative fluxes by an equal magnitude. There’s a few weasel-words in the abstract, but the article itself is quite difficult to summarize. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/193 "2010-04-13T18:59:08Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > This is an epic pile-on at this point. Can we relax, unless The Second Stone returns with further rebuttals? You consider this “epic”? [THIS is an “epic” pile-on (everyone vs Scott Plaid. IIRC, the longest single pile-on in Pit history)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?t=323762) What we have in this thread is reasoned discussion about a thread started either by a troll or someone with known anger management and intelligence issues. ---
**Author:** ![Fenris](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fenris/32/498_2.png) [@Fenris](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fenris)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/194 "2010-04-13T19:11:17Z")
PS–Una, while it’s always a pleasure (and very informative) to read your posts on energy related matters, please be aware that Second Stone is either a troll or uneducable. He’s also the one who went to another board to pit someone who was giving him a spanking here…so…yeah. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 7:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/195 "2010-04-13T19:28:41Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > The current status is that no one knows, which will pretty much be the current status for quite some time to come, is my guess. However, a good background of the issue can be found here: > > [http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16115.full](http://www.pnas.org/content/101/46/16115.full) > > There’s a few weasel-words in the abstract, but the article itself is quite difficult to summarize. Thanks, **Una**. That’s exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. The question having been inspired partially by a discussion by a pair of Ph.D meteorologists for whom I used to work, who both seemed to think it’d be a significant effect if wind were to become a majority player in the power generation markets. One of those Ph.D climatologists also didn’t believe in Global Warming, so I was mostly curious as to the amount of smoke he might have been blowing on this. > [@BubbaDog](#): > > I think that your bid to look more foolish than **The Second Stone** may be successful. I’m sorry, I can’t hear you over the sound of how dumb your response makes you look, given **Una** ’s response. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/196 "2010-04-13T20:10:16Z")
> [@Zeriel](#): > > Thanks, **Una**. That’s exactly the kind of answer I was looking for. You’re welcome - but don’t think ill of BubbaDog; he’s a decent guy. The potential for large-scale wind development is something which has been much more discussed in Europe and the United Kingdom, which is primarily why I’m aware of it; it’s not often discussed in the States. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 13, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/197 "2010-04-13T21:01:04Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > You’re welcome - but don’t think ill of BubbaDog; he’s a decent guy. The potential for large-scale wind development is something which has been much more discussed in Europe and the United Kingdom, which is primarily why I’m aware of it; it’s not often discussed in the States. No need to defend me. I took a cheap shot at an innocent question and expected some heat from it. But just think about the scale of investment and construction of wind power that would be required to actually remove enough energy from the Earth’s wind to cause a long term climatological effect. I think it’s comparable to saying that we need to do a study to determine whether our leisure time fishermen are having a significant impact on the earthworm population. And your cited study pretty much shows that a near impossible 100 fold increase in wind power has an almost negligible effect on regional temperatures. I think the authors of that study weren’t surprised at all with their results. In fact I think they new it was pretty much a mathematical exercise to prove the obvious. The energy in all of the wind blowing all over the planet just isn’t going to be significantly compromised by a few man made constraints placed on less than 1/1000 of its surface area. ---
**Author:** ![TurboNuke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/f19dbf/32.png) [@TurboNuke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TurboNuke)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 1:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/198 "2010-04-14T01:27:00Z")
> [@Aji\_de\_Gallina](#): > > Of the installed capacity of 10, 000 megawatts, what is the actual average output? OMFG the 10,000 megawatts is only the installed capacity? Hahahahaha Stone you are an idiot. Capacity factors for windmills are 20%-40%. And I’ve met very few pro nuke people who were anti-wind. Mostly pro nuke people think nuclear and renewables should replace coal. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/199 "2010-04-14T02:21:43Z")
> [@Fenris](#): > > PS–Una, while it’s always a pleasure (and very informative) to read your posts on energy related matters, please be aware that Second Stone is either a troll or uneducable. > > He’s also the one who went to another board to pit someone who was giving him a spanking here…so…yeah. Ah, thanks. I’ll keep an eye open for when the off-board slurs and death threats start up again. ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 14, 2010, 1:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/200 "2010-04-14T13:13:00Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > No need to defend me. I took a cheap shot at an innocent question and expected some heat from it. > > But just think about the scale of investment and construction of wind power that would be required to actually remove enough energy from the Earth’s wind to cause a long term climatological effect. > > I think it’s comparable to saying that we need to do a study to determine whether our leisure time fishermen are having a significant impact on the earthworm population. > > And your cited study pretty much shows that a near impossible 100 fold increase in wind power has an almost negligible effect on regional temperatures. > > I think the authors of that study weren’t surprised at all with their results. In fact I think they new it was pretty much a mathematical exercise to prove the obvious. The energy in all of the wind blowing all over the planet just isn’t going to be significantly compromised by a few man made constraints placed on less than 1/1000 of its surface area. Hey, man, I can’t help having heard words to the effect from a climatologist. No damn reason to jump on someone looking for the straight dope on the subject. Besides, the end of the study says flat out : “Our analysis suggests that the climatic impacts of wind power may be nonnegligible, but they do not allow a detailed quantitative evaluation of the climatic changes induced by extraction of wind power. Further research is warranted on the local effects of current wind farms on surface climate and boundary-layer meteorology, as well as on the development of better parameterizations of wind farms in large-scale models.” If we are pushing collectively for renewable energy to be more than a minuscule fraction of global power generation, then this is the kind of thing we NEED to think about and plan for, or else what’s the point of trading one power-generating demon for another. It shouldn’t just be dismissed out of hand as absurd. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702.md?page=11)