# Oh No! 2009 record amounts of new US wind power **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702 "2010-04-11T05:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 8
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/141 "2010-04-12T15:09:51Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > To summarize, he said there’s no new nuclear power, and you pointed out that existing facilities have been improved/refitted to produce more. Right? Not quite, he said we’ve produced no additional power from nuclear sources. Which is factually wrong. And there’s no point wasting time with **The Second Stone** since he doesn’t know what he’s talking about and is willing to blame everyone but himself for his inability to communicate. We’re producing more wind power in this country, but it seems to mostly be in the form of hot air. ---
**Author:** ![ivn1188](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e480ec/32.png) [@ivn1188](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ivn1188)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 3:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/142 "2010-04-12T15:18:30Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Does anyone here think I need to waste my time on Second Stone when all he’s really got left are personal attacks and what appears to be rage? Let me fix that: > [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Does anyone here think I need to waste my time on Second Stone > . . . > ? and no, I did not alter a quote, I simply cut out a part irrelevant to my point, which is allowed, so shut it, crybabies ---
**Author:** ![Zeriel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/58956e/32.png) [@Zeriel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zeriel)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/143 "2010-04-12T16:04:28Z")
Silly but relevant question: Has anyone any math on the climatological impact of removing ~1,000,000 MW from the atmosphere and hydrosphere if we WERE to somehow go to 100% renewable? I remember reading somewhere, which I cannot cite because I can’t find it, that large-scale wind generation (that is, in the 50%ish range) would have unfortunate effects on climate (by reducing average wind velocities proportional to the energy generated). ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/144 "2010-04-12T16:27:02Z")
[QUOTE=Una Persson] Does anyone here think I need to waste my time on Second Stone when all he’s really got left are personal attacks and what appears to be rage? [/QUOTE] Well, to be fair, he’s also go an incredible amount of misinformation and cluelessness on this subject as well. It’s not ALL personal attacks and rage. But to answer your question, no…I don’t think you should waste your time on him. I’m unsure why people are wasting their time on levdrakon either, for that matter. You can lead a horse to knowledge, but you can’t then beat it to death mid-stream after looking at it’s teeth to determine if it’s a good gift or not… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/145 "2010-04-12T16:30:47Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > obviously one I forged just to make him look like a fool Talk about gilding the lily… > [@The Second Stone](#): > > Una, you are so stupid an so fucking arrogant about your own field of expertise. Here’s a hint for the future - knowing what you are talking about is not arrogance. I think it is clear enough why you in particular would never have had occasion to discover this, but for your future reference. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/146 "2010-04-12T16:42:58Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > Did you know that disco record sales were up 400% for the year ending 1976? If these trends continue… A-y-y-y! Those fish in your shoes – don’t they have three eyes? ETA okay so I get paid back for making someone say the surreal-out-of-context “I need Evoo for my bunghole” since the above looks really weird ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/147 "2010-04-12T16:54:27Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > To summarize, he said there’s no new nuclear power, and you pointed out that existing facilities have been improved/refitted to produce more. Right? Sure, there’s been no new nuclear plants brought online for a while (in the US), but there has been **new generation** due to increases in the capacity factor and improvements in plant operations and efficiency. The Second Stone Anger Bot was partially correct in what it said later on, but he bungled his OP and played oppositional-defiant-disorder man when he was corrected. He can’t even hedge and claim increases in net capacity factor are an increase in efficiency, since an increase in efficiency which increases generation changes both the numerator and the denominator of the NCF equation (assuming the same operating load curve profile…obviously if you change the profile then all bets are off and you’re not comparing apples to apples any further). ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/148 "2010-04-12T17:39:20Z")
This thread is so sad. I was trying to convince myself since it’s the pit maybe you all are just trolling for the fun of it. I fear you aren’t. You actually think if we throw enough trillions at the power companies they will save the Earth. Not only that, but you think they’ll save it in just under 10 years. If they don’t, just throw more trillions their way and blame hippies for their failures, delays, lack of trained personnel and cost overruns. Get rid of all regulation. All of it. It’s the only way big corporate energy will be able to achieve their miracles. Let 1000 tons of nuclear fuel be traded on eBay to anyone with an email address and a credit card. Don’t impede the power companies with your hippy communist regulations! Just give them trillions, and it will all be okay! Trust them! Anything else spells doom for humanity! The ignorance here is beyond shocking. Next you’re going to tell me in all seriousness that it’s all okay because the government and the power companies are holding secret negotiations with space aliens and that’s really why everything is okay and we shouldn’t worry. Just give them those trillions and tomorrow we’ll all have flying cars. No, no, actually we’ll have teleportation and time machines and we’ll just go back in time and fix things. Sometimes we fight ignorance. Sometimes ignorance fights back. Sometimes a mob of ignorance gets caught up in a multi-trillion dollar religious frenzy and there’s just nothing you can do. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/149 "2010-04-12T17:43:51Z")
There are so many layers and levels of irony there that I wouldn’t even know where to start. And really, what’s the point? You can’t fight the green energy magic pony tech faithful on this…not when they have the CT and the righteousness of their rectitude on their side… -XT ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/150 "2010-04-12T17:44:22Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > This thread is so sad. I was trying to convince myself since it’s the pit maybe you all are just trolling for the fun of it. I fear you aren’t. You actually think if we throw enough trillions at the power companies they will save the Earth. Not only that, but you think they’ll save it in just under 10 years. If they don’t, just throw more trillions their way and blame hippies for their failures, delays, lack of trained personnel and cost overruns. > > Get rid of all regulation. All of it. It’s the only way big corporate energy will be able to achieve their miracles. Let 1000 tons of nuclear fuel be traded on eBay to anyone with an email address and a credit card. Don’t impede the power companies with your hippy communist regulations! Just give them trillions, and it will all be okay! Trust them! Anything else spells doom for humanity! It is a good thing that hay is a renewable resource, because you just burned of an entire acre of strawmen in a single post. Stranger ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/151 "2010-04-12T17:46:20Z")
That was the first ever example of the _fallacy of the excluded every fucking thing not at the extreme ends of the spectrum_. And you saw it right here on the SDMB, everyone! ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/152 "2010-04-12T17:53:45Z")
I’m not sure this is 100% topical, but since this seems to have evolved into a general “renewable energy” discussion, and **Una** is participating, I thought I’d ask this question. **Una** , what do you think of the potential of [plasma gasification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_waste_disposal) as a way to kill a couple of birds with one stone, at least on a temporary basis? I know the technology isn’t really proven yet, but several municipalities are actively looking at installing plasma arc disposals. These disposals use an arc of plasma to reduce almost any kind of municipal garbage to 1) free gases and 2) a little solid slag. In addition, they apparently are capable of generating more electrical energy than they consume, the idea being to then sell the electricity back to the grid. I’ve also read that they have enough capacity, for most areas, to process more garbage per month than is generated by the municipality. My hometown, Montgomery, Alabama, is considering installing a plasma arc generator (making it potentially the first city in the world to do so), and from what I’ve heard, it will accept garbage from most of the outlying towns nearby, as well as its own, and STILL have leftover monthly capacity, allowing Montgomery to get rid of all of its new trash, while producing cheap electricity, AND reduce its existing landfills. So, that’s pretty pie-in-the-sky. Nice, if it works. Do you have any experience looking at this technology? Any comments, criticisms, etc? ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/153 "2010-04-12T18:13:51Z")
I had planned to stay out of this because the stupid in this thread burns with the soul of a thousand suns. It’s just too bad that we can’t harness that energy. In my previous life I was involved with transmission planning, generation planning, resource planning and operations of power systems. I’m not going to directly jump on anyone’s shit here but I would like to throw out a few observations. **The Big Bad Power Companies** - yes they are. They want money. Lot’s of it. They can’t get as much of it if they are paying for fuel supplies. Think about that. As a planner I used to salivate at the thought of telling the coal companies to fuck off because I was getting my power from wind, solar, biofuel etc. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/154 "2010-04-12T18:15:28Z")
How ironic. **BubbaDog’s** power went out while he was composing his post. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/155 "2010-04-12T18:20:20Z")
Sorry, accidentally hit submit - **Wind good - Fossil fuel Evil** My company installed a lot of wind power. Our operators scrambled hourly to balance the erratic output of wind against the erratic demand of the customers on the grid. That balancing act required that we either “rode the ties” (that’s sucking or pushing power to your neighbors without their permission, a fine-able offense) or using fast changing natural gas turbines to balance. Coal generation was to slow for load following. There was a reason T-Bone was pushing wind. He wasn’t voting for wind. He was trying to sell his gas Even with it’s headaches we loved the wind energy. Even though it sometimes forced us to blend higher priced natural gas generation it was cheaper and cleaner than other sources and that made us happy. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/156 "2010-04-12T18:21:02Z")
> [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](#): > > It is a good thing that hay is a renewable resource, because you just burned of an entire acre of strawmen in a single post. > > Stranger Really? **Der Tris** and his pals think by 2020 we’re going to have 100% clean cheap nuke power unless the hippies wreck it all, and he thinks if Germany, or California or really any place else for that matter were to achieve something like 30% renewable energy by 2020 it would be instant doom for the human race. Could you address that? You’ve remained rather silent on some of the things your colleagues are claiming. Hell, China doesn’t have to worry about hippies, they’re rapidly developing nuke power and they don’t think they’ll be producing more than 5% nuke electricity by 2020. The US has what, 7 or 9 reactors planned? That’s going to save the world by 2020? ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/157 "2010-04-12T18:23:37Z")
_Colleagues?_ I’m fairly certain the only thing we all agree on is that you are a dunce. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Second\_Stone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@The\_Second\_Stone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Second_Stone)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/158 "2010-04-12T18:26:25Z")
> [@Una\_Persson](#): > > Does anyone here think I need to waste my time on Second Stone when all he’s really got left are personal attacks and what appears to be rage? > > However, for the sake of everyone else in this thread who are trying to have a decent discussion, I feel I must yet again correct misinformation in his post. > > He’s made another factual error here: the new nuclear generation (those “new Watts” he refuses to admit exist) does not solely come from more efficient generation, it comes in a large part, possibly a majority part, from increases in the net capacity factor of the units. Here is another link (obviously one I forged just to make him look like a fool), which demonstrates the new nuclear generation due to higher net capacity factors over the timetable he himself laid out in his misleading OP. > > [http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec9\_5.pdf](http://www.eia.doe.gov/emeu/aer/pdf/pages/sec9_5.pdf) > > Net capacity factor is defined as the ratio of: > > ## actual net generation, kW/hour > > maximum net power, kW \* 8760 hours > > When this number increases it means in the NSR world you may have created new generation (it depends upon where you start from and what your permit says…) In the NSR world this means you could be facing serious legal issues, and all your claims that it is not “new” generation won’t carry much weight in court. In the nuclear world, this new generation can have different non-NSR impacts, such as with respect to cooling water draw and heated cooling water discharge. The folks who have river-source nuclear plants know what “new” generation is, as they have limits they must face. > > Ignoring capacity factor and focusing on efficiency is the result of ignorance, not _necessarily_ stupidity. Given his alleged backing of wind power I would have thought that the concept of net capacity factor (a very critical concern about wind generation) would be known to him before he would make a claim about it **all** (note the bolded word) being due to efficiency increases. I find that unfortunate as well. > > Now I don’t expect him to admit he’s wrong; rather I expect him to claim I twisted his words, was supposed to read his mind, didn’t read for intent, it’s all lies from Una the Great Satan in clouds of sulfur, etc. And he’ll continue to make false claims that I said there were new nuclear “plants”, as well as personal attacks and slurs. > > But I won’t know that, because I’m Bored Now. Apparently you do need to waste our time because here you are again. If I were wrong, or if you cited things in a way to explain I’m wrong, I’d admit it. I’ve admitted error many times in my posting history. I’ve never seen you do that, but I suppose it’s possible. Here’s my beef with your latest post: You set up a straw man and redefine the argument away from the OP of new turbines to “net capacity” then you assert that it is a recalculation of the whole reactor set up, and add _ **another** _ unexplained table and again assert that the nuclear piles are themselves generating more heat without offering a cite. That is bullshit. And it’s misleading. If you’ve got a cite that the current piles are offering more heat (watts), it would support your nitpick that current piles are supplying additional watts. Those aren’t new plants, which is what the OP is about, but at least it would make you an honest nitpicker. But you aren’t even that. You want us to accept your expertise on whether certain _ **facts** _ exist, but decline to cite anything to that effect. A table without an explanation is just that. I want you to stop bullshitting us in this thread and in general. That doesn’t mean don’t offer correct little tidbits like how to calculate a term connected to a definition, but it means talk about what the real subject is, don’t nitpick without admitting it is a nitpick and if you are going to act like a expert arbiter, at least have the integrity to address the main point and not nitpick. Yeah, I’ve attacked your personal integrity, because I’ve seen you do this shit constantly: two garbage tables without explanation followed by a bunch of bloviating. If you are going to claim to be an expert, link to cites, explain what you are saying and explain the limits of your interpretation. Yes, I can see and I am aware that more watts come out of existing nuclear plants. My point was and remains that despite the US government now being on the hook for tens of billions of dollars more than it was two months ago for nuclear power that we have no new plants and are unlikely to get any. However, we have 5,700 new wind turbines in the last year and more will be coming. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/159 "2010-04-12T18:29:57Z")
The table pretty obviously shows that nuclear plants _en toto_ are producing more power in each successive year. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/160 "2010-04-12T18:31:29Z")
**Them nasty transmission lines** - There really aren’t a lot of them where the wind was blowing (Western Kansas in our case) and there wasn’t a lot of load out there either. So when the wind blows the transmission capacity gets used up pretty fast. T-Boone eventually got around to discovering that large scale wind and solar will also require some large scale transmission development. Or we could all just move to where it’s windy. Those are my observations. My opinion is this: No new or old technology is going to be a quick or complete fix of the energy problems facing the US or any country. To assume that there is some sort of Windows vs Apple competition between Nuclear proponents and renewable energy proponents is actually so naive its quite amazing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702.md?page=7) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702.md?page=9)