# Oh No! 2009 record amounts of new US wind power **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [April 11, 2010, 5:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702 "2010-04-11T05:01:24Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/161 "2010-04-12T18:38:01Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Or we could all just move to where it’s windy. Or, as my side of the argument would suggest, if you live where it’s windy, try using it. The other side says that’s a hippy conspiracy to bring down civilization and the only answer is to get your power from a nuke plant 1,000 miles away. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/162 "2010-04-12T18:38:44Z")
OK, never mind. I’ll plant a new thread in GD on plasma gasification. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/163 "2010-04-12T18:42:45Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Or, as my side of the argument would suggest, if you live where it’s windy, try using it. The other side says that’s a hippy conspiracy to bring down civilization and the only answer is to get your power from a nuke plant 1,000 miles away. Okay, it was cute at first, but now you’re just fucking trolling. NOBODY SAID YOU CAN’T USE WIND POWER. You interpret any comment about how wind can’t provide _all_ of our power as some sort of claim that wind power should be banned. However, your reading comprehension difficulties are _your_ problem, not ours. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/164 "2010-04-12T18:54:09Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > Okay, it was cute at first, but now you’re just fucking trolling. NOBODY SAID YOU CAN’T USE WIND POWER. You interpret any comment about how wind can’t provide _all_ of our power as some sort of claim that wind power should be banned. > > However, your reading comprehension difficulties are _your_ problem, not ours. Okay, it was cute at first, but now you’re just fucking trolling. NOBODY SAID YOU CAN’T USE NUCLEAR POWER. You interpret any comment about how nuclear can’t provide _all_ of our power as some sort of claim that nuclear power should be banned. However, your reading comprehension difficulties are _your_ problem, not mine. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/165 "2010-04-12T18:54:24Z")
> [@The\_Second\_Stone](#): > > Apparently you do need to waste our time because here you are again. If I were wrong, or if you cited things in a way to explain I’m wrong, I’d admit it. I’ve admitted error many times in my posting history. I’ve never seen you do that, but I suppose it’s possible. > > Here’s my beef with your latest post: You set up a straw man and redefine the argument away from the OP of new turbines to “net capacity” then you assert that it is a recalculation of the whole reactor set up, and add _ **another** _ unexplained table and again assert that the nuclear piles are themselves generating more heat without offering a cite. That is bullshit. And it’s misleading. If you’ve got a cite that the current piles are offering more heat (watts), it would support your nitpick that current piles are supplying additional watts. Those aren’t new plants, which is what the OP is about, but at least it would make you an honest nitpicker. But you aren’t even that. You want us to accept your expertise on whether certain _ **facts** _ exist, but decline to cite anything to that effect. A table without an explanation is just that. > > I want you to stop bullshitting us in this thread and in general. That doesn’t mean don’t offer correct little tidbits like how to calculate a term connected to a definition, but it means talk about what the real subject is, don’t nitpick without admitting it is a nitpick and if you are going to act like a expert arbiter, at least have the integrity to address the main point and not nitpick. Yeah, I’ve attacked your personal integrity, because I’ve seen you do this shit constantly: two garbage tables without explanation followed by a bunch of bloviating. If you are going to claim to be an expert, link to cites, explain what you are saying and explain the limits of your interpretation. > > Yes, I can see and I am aware that more watts come out of existing nuclear plants. My point was and remains that despite the US government now being on the hook for tens of billions of dollars more than it was two months ago for nuclear power that we have no new plants and are unlikely to get any. However, we have 5,700 new wind turbines in the last year and more will be coming. It looks like **Una** gave up on explaining this to you. Why I’m taking a stab at it is possibly a blemish on my judgment, but what the hell. **Una** correctly called you on your statement. Improving the output of a power plant has always, within the industry at least, been considered as NEW CAPACITY. There’s actually some downside to doing that as it can cause a flood of “new capacity” regulations for the operators. But that’s too complicated to address here. You are correct in stating that no new nuclear power plants have been built. **Una** was correct in refuting your claim that no additional MWH were produced by new nuke _capacity_. Saying that she lied in her claim is downright stupid. Your “this year/next year” comparisons have one minor flaw. Any new coal, hydro, or nuke plant has a 7- 10 year concept-to-output critical path. So even if one could reach in their pocket, pull out a few billion dollars and say, "build me a nuke or coal " it would take years of planning, design, construction, and testing before it would happen. Being smaller and modular no one would argue that a wind turbine can’t be built faster. But I don’t really see what that proves. You can put up a thousand tents in the time it takes to build a house but that would only be a proper argument if you valued housing capacity over housing reliability. ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/166 "2010-04-12T19:10:39Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > Or, as my side of the argument would suggest, if you live where it’s windy, try using it. The other side says that’s a hippy conspiracy to bring down civilization and the only answer is to get your power from a nuke plant 1,000 miles away. I’ve tried taking with wind proponents a few times (my nephew and I discuss this often) and I can tell that they always think that I’m on “the other side”. I never understand this. Again, as a planner, anytime I can stick it to the coal or oil interests I’m all for it. I _want_ to make renewables work. I want wind. But I also have to put the power to the customer \*\*when he wants it \*\*. The bolding is a key reason that one side looks like “big business” and the other side looks like “hippies”. I also have financial pressure from regulators who won’t tell if I can get a return on my investment until after I built it. If I build wind, transmission and storage and its lifetime delivery of power costs more than coal, the regulators can disallow all or part of my investment. They’re pushing for renewables too but they get to change their minds at the last minute and claim it was too costly leaving me to hold the bag. So, while I’m slowly integrating renewable energy into my supply mix 'm also building other fossil fuel plants that can produce when I need them to. And then every time I build a fossil plant I have a multitude of critics berating me for not building renewable. Some people can’t see the big picture. To them the world is all wind or all smog and radioactivity. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/167 "2010-04-12T19:14:23Z")
For those interested, here is my GD thread on [plasma arc waste disposal/power generation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=12332817#post12332817). ---
**Author:** ![BubbaDog](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bubbadog/32/333_2.png) [@BubbaDog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BubbaDog)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/168 "2010-04-12T19:14:39Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > OK, never mind. I’ll plant a new thread in GD on plasma gasification. Sorry **Ogre**. **Una** decided that the problem of arguing with a fool ( **Second Stone** ) is that pretty soon nobody can tell the difference. And I can’t help you with your question. I’ll be watching your GD thread. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/169 "2010-04-12T19:17:10Z")
This whole thread contains some of the stupidest arguments against nuclear power that I’ve ever seen. It completely encapsulates why the nuclear industry is where it is today. Anti-nuclear zealots do everything in their power to delay or kill nuclear generating projects (not to mention waste storage at Yucca Mountain), then try to argue that the reason there are no new nuclear projects is because nuclear power is not economically competitive. :rolleyes: **Senor Beef** actually summarized the situation quite well, IMHO. FWIW, I’m both an environmental engineer and an environmentalist, and I think that nuclear power would do a lot to wean us off of burning fossil fuels for electricity production. Which is not say that we can’t also encourage new wind, solar, and other “green” energy sources. > [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > Actually, there has been new energy produced by nuclear power in the US in the last 30 years. Several aircraft carriers and a bunch of nuc submarines. > > The Navy seems to be great with nuclear power. Or great at coverups of their nuclear accidents. I dunno which. > > I think we oughtta just attach their propellor shafts to generators, or jumper cables to the electrical grids in their ports. Win win. The U.S. Navy has never had a nuclear accident. However, trying to use a submarine as a power plant is not particularly efficient–only about 10% of the reactor power goes to the on-board turbogenerators. The rest goes to drive the main shaft and propeller. Also, compared to a large civilian nuclear power plant, submarine plants are both small and manpower-intensive. ---
**Author:** ![Ogre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/ecb155/32.png) [@Ogre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ogre)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/170 "2010-04-12T19:20:07Z")
> [@BubbaDog](#): > > Sorry **Ogre**. **Una** decided that the problem of arguing with a fool ( **Second Stone** ) is that pretty soon nobody can tell the difference. > > And I can’t help you with your question. I’ll be watching your GD thread. Right on. This probably wasn’t the place to ask it anyway. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/171 "2010-04-12T19:30:13Z")
> [@robby](#): > > This whole thread contains some of the stupidest arguments against nuclear power that I’ve ever seen. It completely encapsulates why the nuclear industry is where it is today. Anti-nuclear zealots do everything in their power to delay or kill nuclear generating projects (not to mention waste storage at Yucca Mountain), then try to argue that the reason there are no new nuclear projects is because nuclear power is not economically competitive. :rolleyes: That’s not what’s going on here. Try reading [this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States) > [@](#): > > Also in February 2010, Vermont Senate voted 26 to 4 to block operation of the Vermont Yankee Nuclear Power Plant after 2012, citing radioactive tritium leaks, misstatements in testimony by plant officials, a cooling tower collapse in 2007, and other problems. By state law, the renewal of the operating license must be approved by both houses of the legislature for the nuclear power plant to continue operation To the nuke nuts here things like this mean: hippy conspiracy to bring down civilization, remove regulations! Remove all this obstructionism! It was amusing at first, now it’s just sad. ---
**Author:** ![robby](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/robby/32/11048_2.png) [@robby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/robby)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/172 "2010-04-12T19:54:21Z")
> [@levdrakon](#): > > That’s not what’s going on here. Try reading [this.](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nuclear_power_in_the_United_States) > > To the nuke nuts here things like this mean: hippy conspiracy to bring down civilization, remove regulations! Remove all this obstructionism! > > It was amusing at first, now it’s just sad. It seems pretty ridiculous to require a literal act of both houses of the Vermont state legislature just to renew a license. [And permanent revocation of the operating license of the plant that supplies something like 75% of the state’s electrical generating capacity, with no plans to replace this capacity,](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vermont_Yankee_Nuclear_Power_Plant) seems pretty short-sighted and stupid, too. IMHO, the correct response for violations of environmental laws is to enforce the laws, not by revoking a plant’s license to operate. That’s cutting off one’s nose to spite one’s face. And finally, if the standard for putting a company out of business is alleged misstatements by company officials, then you’re looking at a pretty loose standard that would apply to most of the corporate world, including companies like Toyota and the tobacco executives who testified before the U.S. Congress. I don’t mean to condone such actions, though–the officials and the company should be punished and/or fined for any misstatements, if proven. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/173 "2010-04-12T20:28:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > That was the first ever example of the _fallacy of the excluded every fucking thing not at the extreme ends of the spectrum_. > > And you saw it right here on the SDMB, everyone! That’s not just the extreme ends; that’s punching opposing holes in the space-time fabric and zooming off into new dimensions. ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/174 "2010-04-12T21:01:53Z")
> [@robby](#): > > It seems pretty ridiculous to require a literal act of both houses of the Vermont state legislature just to renew a license. Sure, but knee-jerk reactions to what is most likely a public slap in the face to the plant officials who lied under testimony is ridiculous too. The officials are going to have to jump through some hoops to get their license back and I"m not losing any sleep over it. If Vermont needs the electricity and they can’t get it elsewhere the plant will keep right on running, and maybe they’ll even be able to do it without [del]towers falling down[/del] hippy sabotage. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/175 "2010-04-12T21:11:58Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] Sure, but knee-jerk reactions to what is most likely a public slap in the face to the plant officials who lied under testimony is ridiculous too. The officials are going to have to jump through some hoops to get their license back and I"m not losing any sleep over it. If Vermont needs the electricity and they can’t get it elsewhere the plant will keep right on running, and maybe they’ll even be able to do it without towers falling down hippy sabotage. [/QUOTE] If I’m reading this right, that plant alone produces nearly half of the annual energy output of the 5700 new wind generators cited in the OP. So…where is Vermont going to put 2000+ wind towers to replace it? And, where are they going to get the billions it will cost to do so? Just curious as to how they will do this by 2012… -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/176 "2010-04-12T21:16:56Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > If I’m reading this right, that plant alone produces nearly half of the annual energy output of the 5700 new wind generators cited in the OP. So…where is Vermont going to put 2000+ wind towers to replace it? And, where are they going to get the billions it will cost to do so? Just curious as to how they will do this by 2012… > > -XT I don’t know why you’re waving your strawman at me, I didn’t say anything about Vermont and wind power. But, if they decide to harness hot air, they could ask you to move there. ---
**Author:** ![Una\_Persson](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/una_persson/32/346_2.png) [@Una\_Persson](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Una_Persson)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/177 "2010-04-12T21:17:50Z")
> [@Ogre](#): > > **Una** , what do you think of the potential of [plasma gasification](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plasma_arc_waste_disposal) as a way to kill a couple of birds with one stone, at least on a temporary basis? > > … > > So, that’s pretty pie-in-the-sky. Nice, if it works. Do you have any experience looking at this technology? Any comments, criticisms, etc? I apologize, but I do not have any real experience with this at all - in fact, I found that Wiki page you linked to to be quite interesting, and I e-mailed my librarian to get some articles on it tomorrow when he comes in. Although I am somewhat ignorant of the process, I am proud that I guessed halogens released in the plasma (especially chlorine from plastics) would be a potential design problem before I read that far on the Wiki page. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/178 "2010-04-12T21:18:40Z")
[QUOTE=levdrakon] I don’t know why you’re waving your strawman at me, I didn’t say anything about Vermont and wind power. But, if they decide to harness hot air, they could ask you to move there. [/QUOTE] Ah…I was under the impression you actually had a point, and weren’t just talking out of your ass for the pleasure of hearing yourself speak. My apologies. Go back to whatever it was you were doing… -XT ---
**Author:** ![levdrakon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/49beb7/32.png) [@levdrakon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/levdrakon)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/179 "2010-04-12T21:38:57Z")
> [@xtisme](#): > > Ah…I was under the impression you actually had a point, and weren’t just talking out of your ass for the pleasure of hearing yourself speak. My apologies. Go back to whatever it was you were doing… > > -XT Why don’t you use those two or three remaining brain cells you have to read and think instead of just typing random bullshit. I said if they need the electricity they’d keep the plant running but as usual you demonstrate your complete lack of comprehension of even the most basic English words. You’ve amply shown you can’t read, but if any literate non-nuke nuts are interested, [Utilities weigh bids from new power sources](http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20090113/NEWS03/901120289/1004/NEWS03). > [@](#): > > A joint statement by the trio of power companies on Monday stated that the bidders include “power marketers, energy developers, existing and to-be-built power plant owners and banks.” In total, the bids add up to about 1,000 megawatts of energy - 10 times the amount that they are looking for. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [April 12, 2010, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-2009-record-amounts-of-new-us-wind-power/535702/180 "2010-04-12T21:41:36Z")
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