# Oh, NO!! A school??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560 "2004-09-01T12:40:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/41 "2004-09-01T15:38:06Z")
Aldebaran, where did you get the bizarre notion that a condemnation implies an apology? The apology comes from the people who did the deed. But condemnation comes from all who deplore it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/42 "2004-09-01T15:39:19Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Adulterers? Fucking hell, Mhendo, if Islamic fundamentalists were running all over the world committing adultery, you wouldn’t hear a peep out of me. Firstly, that question was directed at **Mojo** , and was intended to demonstrate that plenty of people, of all religious strpies, fail to follow the teachings of their religion. Is not adultery, after all, a mortal sin? No, i don’t in any way equate adultery with terrorism or murder, but **Mojo** ’s question implied that Muslims had a greater tendency towards hypocrisy than Christians. Hell i could have used murder as an example, e.g., “Why does a predominantly Christian nation like the US have so many murders?” I would ask this question not to imply that all murderers are Christians, or that Christians are especially prone to murder, but simply to rebut **Mojo** ’s implication that Islam is alone in having hypocritical “adherents.” > [@Liberal](#): > > But if Christian fundamentalists were running all over the world blowing up busses and kidnapping children, your ass would be screaming bloody murder. And don’t pretend otherwise. Aldebaran has been quick to condemn perceived attacks on his conscience, but still not one word of condemnation about attacks on these children. Hey, maybe if you had just come into this thread and simply condemned the terrorists (as you are calling for **Aldebaran** to do), rather than using it as an excuse to beat up on Islam, then **Aldebaran** might have had some opportunity to do the same. But no, you had to use the opportunity to take a cheap shot. This might have been partly understandable if the thread had been going for some time with no word from **Aldebaran** , but you were the first respondent. I think you came here with no desire but to stir shit. > [@Liberal](#): > > Even you, after saying the act spoke for itself, still spoke out against it. “Even you”? Even me? What the fuck does that mean? Have i somehow previously given some indication that i’m not the sort of person who generally opposes or speaks out against terrorism? ---
**Author:** ![Metacom](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ecae2f/32.png) [@Metacom](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Metacom)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/43 "2004-09-01T15:49:07Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Who the hell has said that Aldebaran is “responsbible” for this act? Do you refuse to _condemn_ abortion clinic bombers??? In an earlier post in this thread, **Alde** and other Muslims where metaphorically charged to “clean up their houses.” That, plus the “loud and universal condemnation should ring forth from every mosque on earth” bit both seem to be calling on him and other Muslims to do far more then merely not refuse to condemn something. Do I refuse to condemn [the actions of] abortion clinic bombers? Hell no–but at the same time I don’t walk around actively condemning them and I don’t expect the priests at my church to bring it up either. It goes without saying. Likewise, I don’t think peaceful Muslims have a responsibility to make an extraordinary attempt to denounce this, because it’s obviously not a part of the religion has they understand and practice it. ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/44 "2004-09-01T15:49:20Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > **Aldebaran** , do you not agree with the prudence of Islamic bodies condeming acts vociferously in order to protect their people? Sorry, I overlooked your “in order to protect their people”. I’m not sure what you mean by this. Such statements are not made and published with as only goal to please the non Islamic nations and more specific the West. Actions comitted by people claiming to be Muslims and some even claiming to act “in the name of God” or “in the name of Islam”, are not condemned for the purpose to “protect Muslims” for the bigotry and ignorance of the West. They are condemned because they are violations of the commands of Islam. That is not a game, played to “protect Muslims”. That is making statements about the teachings of Islam. If there is by this a thought about Muslims hearing it, then it is to make the Muslims hearing or reading it that they should focus on the commands of Islam **as they are**. Not as they are sold to them by people who have as their aim political goals and who fabricate a twisted version of Islam as a tool make their l goals look as if they are in line with Islamic rules and goals. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/45 "2004-09-01T15:50:38Z")
Do we even know _who_ the hostage takers are, or _what_ they want? If not then some of you guys should shut the fuck up for a minute. If so, then I should shut the fuck up. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/46 "2004-09-01T15:58:06Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Do we even know _who_ the hostage takers are, or _what_ they want? If not then some of you guys should shut the fuck up for a minute. If so, then I should shut the fuck up. 😛 It might have something to do with a statement issued yesterday by the Islambouli Brigades: “Targeting Russia is the start of a violent and bloody war against those who have dedicated themselves to kill Islam and its people. This war will dissuade the criminals in Russia’s house from killing Muslims.” [http://www.jihadunspun.com/](http://www.jihadunspun.com/) ---
**Author:** ![Gangster\_Octopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/a8b319/32.png) [@Gangster\_Octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gangster_Octopus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/47 "2004-09-01T16:06:25Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > Firstly, that question was directed at **Mojo** , and was intended to demonstrate that plenty of people, of all religious strpies, fail to follow the teachings of their religion. Is not adultery, after all, a mortal sin? > > No, i don’t in any way equate adultery with terrorism or murder, but **Mojo** ’s question implied that Muslims had a greater tendency towards hypocrisy than Christians. Hell i could have used murder as an example, e.g., “Why does a predominantly Christian nation like the US have so many murders?” I would ask this question not to imply that all murderers are Christians, or that Christians are especially prone to murder, but simply to rebut **Mojo** ’s implication that Islam is alone in having hypocritical “adherents.” I think the big difference however is that the bombng act is done in the name and is justified by the attackers as condoned by their religon (rightly or wrongly). I don’t think anyone is claiming adultery is advocated by their religon (well the mainstream ones at least). ---
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/48 "2004-09-01T16:07:25Z")
> [@Left Hand of Dorkness](#): > > Could there perhaps be a truce over politics and religion until these children are no longer in danger? Could we wait to use their plight as a a way to score a point in an ongoing debate until they’re not about to die?l This is by far the most normal and humane and compassionate post in this whole thread so far. And yes, you are completely right. These hundreds of children and adults can die any moment if overtehre things get even more critical all at once. I for one don’t see this ending good, with the similar situation in the Moscou theatre in mind. (And my own niece could have been among the hostages there, she was in Moscou and went to that same show only a few days earlier). (Liberal, I suggest you open an new thread to demand that Muslims all over the globe enter it to serve you at your command with posting a thesis condemning terrorism.) Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/49 "2004-09-01T16:11:01Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > It might have something to do with a statement issued yesterday by the Islambouli Brigades: “Targeting Russia is the start of a violent and bloody war against those who have dedicated themselves to kill Islam and its people. This war will dissuade the criminals in Russia’s house from killing Muslims.” > > [http://www.jihadunspun.com/](http://www.jihadunspun.com/) Still only says “armed men”. While assuming it’s Chechen terrorists is a good guess, this OP has flown off the rails, perhaps we should make sure it’s not Timmy McVeigh before we really get into it. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/50 "2004-09-01T16:14:00Z")
> [@World Eater](#): > > Still only says “armed men”. While assuming it’s Chechen terrorists is a good guess, this OP has flown off the rails, perhaps we should make sure it’s not Timmy McVeigh before we really get into it. Periods, commas, what’s the difference? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/51 "2004-09-01T16:54:59Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Aldebaran, where did you get the bizarre notion that a condemnation implies an apology? The apology comes from the people who did the deed. But condemnation comes from all who deplore it. He’s just being typical **Aldebaran**. Set fire to any of his arguments and it will go up in smoke in two minutes. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/52 "2004-09-01T17:07:40Z")
> [@Gangster Octopus](#): > > I think the big difference however is that the bombng act is done in the name and is justified by the attackers as condoned by their religon (rightly or wrongly). I don’t think anyone is claiming adultery is advocated by their religon (well the mainstream ones at least). Yeah, but the claims of some nut-job terrorists should not be seen as reflecting broader reality in any way. And the people who the nut-jobs _claim_ to represent should not be tarnished by the such claims. The KKK claims to represent true American values. This doesn’t mean that the presence of the KKK is an excuse to call all Americans to task, or to suggest that they “get their house in order.” ---
**Author:** ![sinical\_brit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/48db29/32.png) [@sinical\_brit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sinical_brit)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/53 "2004-09-01T17:16:30Z")
What a pointless thread. Lib - when you have wiped the froth from your mouth and the knee from your chin, maybe you can give us the address where we should post our condemnation of the events in Russia to. Is it not a given that most HUMANS on the planet would condem this - why must Alde be singled out. The link in the OP doesnt mention any religon - Islam or otherwise. YOU seem to be developing a rather unpleasant outlook on life. sin ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/54 "2004-09-01T17:45:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _by World Eater_: Still only says “armed men”. While assuming it’s Chechen terrorists is a good guess, this OP has flown off the rails, perhaps we should make sure it’s not Timmy McVeigh before we really get into it. A breaking bulletin from _The Economist_: > [@](#): > > **Putin points the finger in the wrong direction** > > **Despite President Vladimir Putin’s assertions to the contrary, Russia’s latest wave of terror attacks has little, if anything, to do with al-Qaeda. [But it has everything to do with Mr Putin’s disastrous policy in the north Caucasus](http://learning.lib.vt.edu/slav/nat_ethnic_caucasus.html).** > > IN A chilling echo of notorious sieges of a Moscow theatre in 2002 and a southern Russian hospital in 1995—each of which ended in more than 100 deaths—militants from the breakaway Russian republic of Chechnya seized a school in nearby [North Ossetia](http://www.nationmaster.com/encyclopedia/North-Ossetia) on Wednesday September 1st, taking hundreds of pupils hostage. > > […] > > Tuesday’s bombing in Moscow and the bombings of the two planes last week were purportedly claimed by the Islambouli Brigades, a group which (under the name “Islambouli Brigades of al-Qaeda”) also said it was behind the attempted assassination of Pakistan’s prime-minister designate, Shaukat Aziz, at the end of July. > > The group is presumably named after Khalid al-Islambouli, who led the 1981 assassination of Egypt’s president, Anwar Sadat, and whose elder brother Muhammad al-Islambouli had ties to an Egyptian extremist group and a base in Afghanistan during the 1980s and 1990s. > > All this was enough for Vladimir Putin, Russia’s president, to call the latest statements attributed to the group “a fact confirming the link between certain forces operating in Chechnya and international terrorism.” Here’s a [map](http://www.guardian.co.uk/graphic/0,5812,1294773,00.html) of the region. From August 24, 2004, a little background from their side: > [@](#): > > \*\*Russia Denies Buildup of its Military at Georgian Border \*\* > > […] > > Georgian senior MP Givi Targamadze, who is a close associate of Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili, said that around 40 combat helicopters, up to 80 infantry combat and armored vehicles, as well as a squad of stormtroopers were mobilized in Russia’s North Ossetia near the Roki tunnel which links breakaway South Ossetian with North Ossetia in combat readiness, three hours after the Georgian troops captured strategic heights in South Ossetia. ---
**Author:** ![lieu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c2a13f/32.png) [@lieu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lieu)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/55 "2004-09-01T17:51:31Z")
While everything probably points to this being a Chechan act, there is at least some possibility that these might not be Chechans holding the kids hostage. Ingushetians, from the same “district” as Chechnya, were kicked out of Ossetia, which is where the school under seige is located. Russia chose not to get involved in that conflict because of their pre-existing Chechan problem. I think it probably is Chechans responsible but there’s others there with an axe to grind as well. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/56 "2004-09-01T17:51:52Z")
Here’s the [link](http://www.civil.ge/eng/article.php?id=7686) to the Georgian news story I’ve just posted. The “breaking news” column on the right of the page is very useful for providing context. ---
**Author:** ![Misnomer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/misnomer/32/14897_2.png) [@Misnomer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Misnomer)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 5:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/57 "2004-09-01T17:59:18Z")
I’m surprised that no one’s sure exactly how many hostages there are: [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/europe/09/01/russia.school/index.html) reports “at least 100 people,” [BBC](http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/3618606.stm) says “around 150,” and [_Le Monde_](http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3214,36-377361,0.html)\* says “at least 200.” I guess CNN is _technically_ the most accurate, but a discrepancy of possibly hundreds of people seems a bit much. The body of the _Le Monde_ story quotes an even higher number: > [@](#): > > _Au total, la police locale pense que de 200 à 400 personnes sont aux mains du commando, révisant à la hausse son estimation précédente qui était de 120 à 150 prisonniers._ (Cliff’s Notes translation\*: local police think that 200-400 people are in the hands of the commandos, revised from an earlier estimate of 120-150.) Shouldn’t the news sources be able to narrow down how many people are in the school to better than 100-400? :dubious: Is there something to situations like this that I’m just not aware of/don’t understand? \*Unless my French skills are rustier than I think, which is entirely possible. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Bubbington-Smythe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/58 "2004-09-01T21:31:44Z")
**Aldebaran** > [@](#): > > Actions comitted by people claiming to be Muslims and some even claiming to act “in the name of God” or “in the name of Islam”, are not condemned for the purpose to “protect Muslims” for the bigotry and ignorance of the West. Indeed, but this is a _practical_ measure. There is a great deal of bigotry and ignorance in the West towards Muslims. Every terrorist act commited in the name of Islam (and yes, I am aware that it is totally contrary to Islamic teaching) adds to the problem. Frankly, I am well aware of your obstuse posting style, but you must be foolish to think that Islam needs to act carefully in order for Muslims to live happily. Yes, it’s not fair, but tough shit. The more the mainstream Islam does to distance itself from the assorted nutters working under its banner (yes, falsely) the better. To ignore such thinking would, IMHO, be folly in the current climate. I’m sure that all reasonable Muslims condemn such actions (as they are indeed just people like everyone else and thus horrified by such things, independent of religiousity), but unfortunately they need to be more vociferous. As I mentioned with my clumsy cycling analogy, when you’re part of a group that has poor PR with the main of the populace, then it’s pretty silly not to try to do whatever you can to show that only a minority of your group are responsible and that they are just as reviled by the group as they are by those outside of it. Thus, whenever I act in a above-normal manner when out on my bike (eg, saying hello and smiling to all the walkers I pass, stopping when kids/dogs are near etc) I’m doing it for both myslef and the wider cycling community. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 9:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/59 "2004-09-01T21:37:51Z")
Welcome to Straight Dope, Lord Bubbington-Smythe. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 10:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/60 "2004-09-01T22:06:24Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > As I mentioned with my clumsy cycling analogy, when you’re part of a group that has poor PR with the main of the populace, then it’s pretty silly not to try to do whatever you can to show that only a minority of your group are responsible and that they are just as reviled by the group as they are by those outside of it. Thus, whenever I act in a above-normal manner when out on my bike (eg, saying hello and smiling to all the walkers I pass, stopping when kids/dogs are near etc) I’m doing it for both myslef and the wider cycling community. That’s an admirable sentiment. How would you feel if some wanker drove by in a car and screamed that you should “get your house in order” because some guy on a bike cut him off in traffic yesterday? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560.md?page=4)