# Oh, NO!! A school??? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 1, 2004, 12:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560 "2004-09-01T12:40:48Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Aldebaran](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c6cbf5/32.png) [@Aldebaran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Aldebaran)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/61 "2004-09-01T22:18:52Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > Indeed, but this is a _practical_ measure. What Is? > [@](#): > > There is a great deal of bigotry and ignorance in the West towards Muslims. That is the problem of the bigots, not of their target. > [@](#): > > Every terrorist act commited in the name of Islam (and yes, I am aware that it is totally contrary to Islamic teaching) adds to the problem. In this I can only agree. Yet that does not make anyone else but these criminals responsible for it and in addition it makes the ones who are too lazy to make a distinction between criminals and billions of Muslims responsible for their own mental lazyness and bigotry. There is as such no responsibility whatsoever for this coming from my side or from the side of whatever Muslim not related to the actions you speak of. > [@](#): > > Frankly, I am well aware of your obstuse posting style, but you must be foolish to think that Islam needs to act carefully in order for Muslims to live happily. Maybe if you could refrase this I would be able to get the meaning. > [@](#): > > The more the mainstream Islam does to distance itself from the assorted nutters working under its banner (yes, falsely) the better. Wrong. It doesnot help one bit to make statements the Western Media don’t want to cover. In addition it does not help one bit to try to use such statements to cure bigots and make intellectual lazy people think. It is not the responsibility of Islam to educate idiots who are too lazy to be able to make a distinction every normal human should be able to make. Let me give you an example (sorry Catholics, it is just taken as an example) The Church was involved in a widely spread child abuse scandal. Do you now say that every single Catholic on this globe should be targetted as ôtential child abuser, should be targetted as sharing a blame in the behaviour of some priests (and yes, they were even offical clergy). Every Catholic on this globe should bring forward over and over again statements that this is not what their religion teaches etc…? Do you go on message boards demanding that Catholics post such statements? I don’t think so for the simple reason that you **know** these are the actions of some disturbed perverts who do **not** represent the faith and its teachings. Well, in the case of Islam, otherwise normal reasoning people don’t seem to be able to do the same normal reasoning. You tell me why. (I know why but we are not in a history class) > [@](#): > > To ignore such thinking would, IMHO, be folly in the current climate. If I ould ignore it, I would not post here what I post. > [@](#): > > I’m sure that all reasonable Muslims condemn such actions (as they are indeed just people like everyone else and thus horrified by such things, independent of religiousity), but unfortunately they need to be more vociferous. No, they do not need to do anything more then you expect normal Catholics to do when it comes to their abusive clergy (and note again that these people are clergy abusing their function and their ability to indeed make appeal to God in order to make children obey them.) > [@](#): > > As I mentioned with my clumsy cycling analogy, when you’re part of a group that has poor PR with the main of the populace, then it’s pretty silly not to try to do whatever you can to show that only a minority of your group are responsible and that they are just as reviled by the group as they are by those outside of it. I don’t think you read attentively my former post. If you want to change it what you describe as “bad PR” then yo should first of all point the finger to where the fault is. Write to the Western media that they must change their biased bigotted attitudes (Somehow I don’t think you shall have much succes. ) And I am sorry, but I’m not on message boards to open every post I make with “I apologize for being Muslim while there are on this globe here and there lunatics with criminal intentions and comitting criminal acts, while they claim to be Muslim, to act in the name of God or to act in the name of my religion. I begg you to be able to know all by yourself that I do not approve of such lunatical actions.” If people can’t figure out all by themselves what they should know all by themselves that is not my fault, or is it? Project that on a global scale and you see where the problem really has its origin. Salaam. A ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 10:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/62 "2004-09-01T22:53:13Z")
> [@mhendo](#): > > That’s an admirable sentiment. > > How would you feel if some wanker drove by in a car and screamed that you should “get your house in order” because some guy on a bike cut him off in traffic yesterday? Have you absolutely no sense of scale? First you compared this murderous rampage and mass child kidnapping to cheating on your wife, and now you compare it to a traffic boo-boo. Have you gone mad? ---
**Author:** ![Mojo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Mojo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mojo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/63 "2004-09-01T22:59:25Z")
Congrats, Aldebaran- now you know how we feel when we read one of your stupid “USer” generalizations. And Liberal- ignore the scale and try to see the point mhendo’s making. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/64 "2004-09-01T23:09:56Z")
> [@](#): > > _by mhendo_ > > That’s an admirable sentiment. > > How would you feel if some wanker drove by in a car and screamed that you should “get your house in order” because some guy on a bike cut him off in traffic yesterday? Depends upon how serious he is about cycling, I suppose. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Bubbington-Smythe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/65 "2004-09-01T23:26:52Z")
> [@](#): > > That is the problem of the bigots, not of their target. In theory yes, but when the bigots start to act, is becomes the problem of the target. > [@](#): > > Quote: > Frankly, I am well aware of your obstuse posting style, but you must be foolish to think that Islam needs to act carefully in order for Muslims to live happily. > > Maybe if you could refrase this I would be able to get the meaning. I’ m suggesting in the first section that you often reply in what I see to be an obtuse style - for example mentioning that “There is as such no responsibility whatsoever for this coming from my side or from the side of whatever Muslim not related to the actions you speak of.”. Responsibility was never mentioned, only prudence was. Though are Muslim leaders not responsible for the safety of those they lead? Not in a ridiculous way, but, if they have the power, to ensure that they do what they can. The second part is confusing 'cos I fucked it up :smack: . I meant to say “foolish to think that Islam **does not** need to act carefully in order for Muslims to live happily”. My mistake. > [@](#): > > Wrong. It doesnot help one bit to make statements the Western Media don’t want to cover. In addition it does not help one bit to try to use such statements to cure bigots and make intellectual lazy people think. The first point is fair. The Western Media thrives on the fear of the populace, so such things are not front page news. What to do about this is a question I do not have a decent answer for. Muslim-led anti-terrorism ‘protests’? I don’t know. I suppose these bigots and lazy people are always going to be bigoted against something. ☹ > [@](#): > > No, they do not need to do anything more then you expect normal Catholics to do when it comes to their abusive clergy Yes they do, because there won’t be any backlash against the Catholic commmunity. Furthermore, your analogy is poor. In the example you gave it was the priests, not the flock, that were the abusers. Thus people saw the institution as corrupt (heh, or more corrupt). If it were imams blowing shit up, then the reaction may be different. > [@](#): > > (Write to) the Western media that they must change their biased bigotted attitudes I’m not sure the Western media are as bad as you think. Yes, there will be bias, but fromwhat I’ve seen here in the UK, the decent (i.e. not the Daily Mail) papers are careful not to blame Muslims, only the fundamentalist nutters. It’s hard not to report on the incidents that we are all curious about and these are, at the moment, the wave of terrorism. > [@](#): > > And I am sorry, but I’m not on message boards to open every post I make with > “I apologize for being Muslim while there are on this globe here and there lunatics with criminal intentions and comitting criminal acts, while they claim to be Muslim, to act in the name of God or to act in the name of my religion. > I begg you to be able to know all by yourself that I do not approve of such lunatical actions.” That’s you being obtuse. I am not suggesting that Muslims should either apologise (In fact, have never mentioned apologies because they cannot be given by anyone apart form those repsonsible, much as you’ve said) or individually make such statements. I have always talked of ‘leaders’. > [@](#): > > If people can’t figure out all by themselves what they should know all by themselves that is not my fault, or is it? No mention of fault has been made by me, only prudence. It’s not your fault, but it may become your problem. I sincerely hope not, but people are, as you say, bigoted and intellectually lazy. You seem to suggest that it’s up to other people to change the view of Islam. Which it is, but you are not in a vacuum - these idiots interact with you/your life. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/66 "2004-09-01T23:29:14Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Have you absolutely no sense of scale? First you compared this murderous rampage and mass child kidnapping to cheating on your wife, and now you compare it to a traffic boo-boo. Have you gone mad? Funny, you were happy to roll with the cycling analogy when **Lord Bubbington-Smythe** was using it to support your point. Hypocrite. ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Bubbington-Smythe)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/67 "2004-09-01T23:34:06Z")
Sorry, missed a few things: > [@](#): > > How would you feel if some wanker drove by in a car and screamed that you should “get your house in order” because some guy on a bike cut him off in traffic yesterday? I’d _feel_ pissed off, but I wouldn’t express it. If they didn’t seem violent, I’d point out their error and suggests that all groups have bad members, perhaps pointing out that they have probably been cut up many times by cars as well. Or then again, I may take their reg no, track them down to their homes and paint their house with a mainly flourescent pink daisy motif. I suppose it depends on what the voices tell me 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/68 "2004-09-01T23:39:41Z")
> [@Mhendo](#): > > Funny, you were happy to roll with the cycling analogy when Lord Bubbington-Smythe was using it to support your point. I can understand your confusion. The analogy sections of tests often leave people scratching their heads. Lord was comparing the representative aspect of cyclist-cyclists to the representative aspect of Muslim-Muslims, and not, as you did, the culpability aspect of cyclist-traffic to the culpability aspect of Muslim-terrorism. No one is saying that cyclists in general are culpable for traffic snarls, and no one is saying that Muslims in general are culpable for terrorism. One need not be responsible for an action in order to voice his condemnation of it. ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/69 "2004-09-01T23:44:52Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > I can understand your confusion. The analogy sections of tests often leave people scratching their heads. Lord was comparing the representative aspect of cyclist-cyclists to the representative aspect of Muslim-Muslims, and not, as you did, the culpability aspect of cyclist-traffic to the culpability aspect of Muslim-terrorism. No one is saying that cyclists in general are culpable for traffic snarls, and no one is saying that Muslims in general are culpable for terrorism. One need not be responsible for an action in order to voice his condemnation of it. And the point i was making is that he, as a cyclist, might be less inclined to come out in open condemnation of poor cyclists if he had assholes like you yelling at him about his responsibilities before he even had a chance to address the issue. You are a fucking cunt for whom i have lost every bit of respect. I know that worries you not a whit, given the extreme lengths you go to in order to be obtuse and at the same time self-righteous, but i just thought i’d let you know. ---
**Author:** ![silenus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/silenus/32/166_2.png) [@silenus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/silenus)\ **Post date:** [September 1, 2004, 11:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/70 "2004-09-01T23:46:19Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > It’s not your fault, but it may become your problem. Exactly! Well-spoken! Except I would drop the **may become** and substitute **is**. You can bet that any anti-Muslim backlash will have **Aldebaran** here whining and moaning about how he is being lumped in with people he doesn’t know. As I stated earlier…Perception is Truth for the overwhelming majority of the planet. Feeling superior won’t keep your ass from getting kicked. ---
**Author:** ![Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e274bd/32.png) [@Boo\_Boo\_Foo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boo_Boo_Foo)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 12:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/71 "2004-09-02T00:55:32Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > Because this deed was not done in the name of your faith. > > “And make not Allah’s name an excuse in your oaths against doing good, or acting rightly, or making peace between persons; for Allah is One Who heareth and knoweth all things.” — 2:224 Oh bullshit. This is another Chechen separatist terrorist action plain and simple. It has as much to do with Islamic Fundamentalism as the PLO attacks did at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Liberal? You’re joining dots here which are entirely inappropriate to join. I’m sure that you’ll continue to waive your righteous words all around the place for a few more days in this thread as you sweat over every post - thereby somehow empowering you to think you’re more important than you truly are - but in this instance, I have to say quite frankly that you were the second person to post in this thread, and if anyone has successfully managed to derail it with a sanctimonious hijack designed to bash the religion of Islam, then you’re the fucker who deserves a good head kicking in my opinion. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/72 "2004-09-02T01:19:26Z")
> [@](#): > > _by Boo Boo Foo_ > > Oh bullshit. This is another Chechen separatist terrorist action plain and simple. Not so plain and not so simple. See my post above. It’s got links and everything. > [@](#): > > It has as much to do with Islamic Fundamentalism as the PLO attacks did at the 1972 Munich Olympics. Who said Islamic Fundamentalism? Who gives a fuck about the Olympics? If a “devout” man is truly devout, he can truly be reached. If you’re a Muslim, it’s simple: your job is to decry the act and do what it takes to prevent the next one. Same for a Christian guy. Jews too. This responsibility comes when you buy the Big Book. ---
**Author:** ![threemae](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/5f9b8f/32.png) [@threemae](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/threemae)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 1:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/73 "2004-09-02T01:45:13Z")
Alright, raise your hand if you’re a Christian. Now keep it raised it you’ve pitted, brought up in conversation, or otherwise condemned the Lord’s Resistance Army. Hands down. Now if you can even point to Uganda on a fucking unlabeled map, raise your hand. Raise your hand if you think that cutting off the lips of dissidents, raping and killing men, women, and children is all just great. And a lot more than 400 children at that. Didn’t fucking think so. I’m gonna go with **Aldebran** on this one. [http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=57922](http://www.zenit.org/english/visualizza.phtml?sid=57922) [http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-08/31/content\_1929857.htm](http://news.xinhuanet.com/english/2004-08/31/content_1929857.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/74 "2004-09-02T02:41:46Z")
> [@Dead Badger](#): > > But Chechnya is far more a local separatist movement than it is anything to do with some global jihad. It suits Russia to paint it as the latter, for it has deflected the opprobrium of the western world in regard to Russia’s oppression of the region. Yes, Chechnya happens to be a region with a large Muslim population, but to demand that Muslims everywhere repudiate the rebels’ actions would be like expecting the Pope to have apologised for every atrocity committed by the IRA. And Ding! We have a winner. This is power politics, plain and simple, just as it has been for the past 20-odd years in Chechnya and the rest of the North Caucasus. Please don’t make the mistake of assuming that because one side is primarily Muslim, and the other side primarily areligious or Christian, that the Chechen conflict is about religion. Chechnya is NOT a religious conflict; it may be turned into one by the Russians, however, in the sense that a) given the current geopolitical fashion of painting all terrorists as Muslim fundamentalist wackos (and vice versa), it’s very convenient for Putin to paint the Chechens that way - it’s easier to demonize them and thereby to paint his Chechen campaigns as “antiterrorist” rather than as the ethnic cleansing that they are; and b) as I posted during the Moscow theater siege and on several other occasions on this board, as the rest of the world has essentially proven that they don’t give a damn about Chechnya unless Chechens are blowing things up, the Chechens are borrowing tactics from some folks I think the rest of us would really rather they didn’t emulate. Some of these folks _do_ happen to be Muslim fundamentalists, and the probably inevitable consequence is that this small minority of religiously motivated violent nutjobs will reflect on the peaceful vast majority, who are just trying to live their lives without having the RF military round up and “disappear” their families and neighbors, rape their women, obliterate their entire culture and way of life, create hundreds of thousands of refugees, and bomb Chechen cities and villages back into the Stone Age. For those of you who don’t know the long, long background of this conflict, please keep in mind that these recent acts of terrorism have not taken place in a vacuum. Chechnya never wanted to be part of RUssia in the first place, and the Chechens have repeatedly had all sorts of legal promises made and broken by the Russian central government over many, many years. These are NOT isolated incidents, and the more fiercely Putin promises that the Russian military will subdue the Chechens, the more they will fight. There are some mighty long memories in the Caucasus. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [September 2, 2004, 2:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/75 "2004-09-02T02:44:13Z")
(That’s 200-odd years of Russian militarism in the North Caucasus, not 20-odd years. Please bear with me; it’s been a looong week.) ---
**Author:** ![Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/f05b48/32.png) [@Lord\_Bubbington-Smythe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lord_Bubbington-Smythe)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 1:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/76 "2004-09-03T13:44:28Z")
Looks like it’s ended badly: [http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624136.stm](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624136.stm) Not suprising, but still totally shitty ☹ ---
**Author:** ![El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/41988e/32.png) [@El\_Cid\_Viscoso](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Cid_Viscoso)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/77 "2004-09-03T14:00:41Z")
Thanks, Lord Bubbington-Smythe. I heard the harrowing radio report, live on BBC World this morning. Latest word is 13 of the militants got away. Here’s a [link](http://www.guardian.co.uk/flash/0,5860,1296676,00.html) to an adequate re-cap of the hostage-taking. Requires Flash, but it’s worth it. Welcome to the Straight Dope! ---
**Author:** ![Quartz](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quartz/32/267_2.png) [@Quartz](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quartz)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/78 "2004-09-03T14:03:38Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > Looks like it’s ended badly ☹ You’re a little quick in reaching that conclusion. Given the alternative of all the hostages dieing, so far, things are going very well. Or are you one of those fuckwits who demands 100% hostage release, no matter the cost? The fact is that at the moment we simply don’t know what happenned and we likely won’t know for some time. My heart goes out to the families of those who’ve been injured and died - except the hostage-takers, may they be reincarnated as swineherds - but **terrorism must not win**. It’s a heavy price, but one worth paying in the long run. ---
**Author:** ![Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bosda_di_chi_of_tricor/32/16845_2.png) [@Bosda\_Di\_Chi\_of\_Tricor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bosda_Di_Chi_of_Tricor)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/79 "2004-09-03T14:05:12Z")
> [@Lord Bubbington-Smythe](#): > > Looks like it’s ended badly: > > [BBC NEWS | Europe | As it happened: Russian school siege](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/3624136.stm) > > Not suprising, but still totally shitty ☹ judging by what I read there at post time, I’d say the terrorists started shooting kids/blowing things up, & the Russians stormed the place. Hence the “unplanned” assault. A forced hand. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [September 3, 2004, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560/80 "2004-09-03T14:12:03Z")
This was a bitch of a situation for assault teams. With adults, you can anticipate at least some understanding and comprehension from the hostages whenever a raid is launched. But with children, still developing frontal lobes for planning and weighing of consequences, it is very problematic. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-no-a-school/262560.md?page=5)