# Oh owlstretchingtime? Ireland is not "fighting a war against Britain" **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [August 21, 2002, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963 "2002-08-21T18:02:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/21 "2002-08-22T13:02:18Z")
The Brits seem to be doing a good enough job at this so I’ll let them argue it out. They are such an aggressive race after all. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 1:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/22 "2002-08-22T13:15:17Z")
BTW, lest you think I’m spouting off with little justification, a very cursory search of the BBC News website reveals the following cites regarding the Irish police and terrorism: [10 held in Irish swoop](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/481066.stm) [Accused was training camp ringleader - Garda](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/489645.stm) [Ahern: Dissidents ‘still pose threat’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/841761.stm) [Bomb parts seized in Irish arrests](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1379000/1379908.stm) [Charges follow arms find](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/618940.stm) [Continuity IRA suspects arrested](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1981000/1981922.stm) [Dissident convicted on officer’s word](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_1363000/1363250.stm) [Dissident suspects due in court](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/1748206.stm) [Further arrests after arms find](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/616170.stm) [Gardai pledge to continue search](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/newsid_374000/374463.stm) [Garda’s killers ‘must not be freed’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1727000/1727288.stm) [Irish police identify ‘IRA suspect’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/1490106.stm) [Irish police seize rocket launcher](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/484829.stm) [Police hold four in ‘Real IRA’ swoop](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1463000/1463784.stm) [Police ‘working to thwart dissidents’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_843000/843429.stm) [Real IRA bomb materials found](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_764000/764165.stm) [Real IRA man jailed for five years](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1615000/1615833.stm) [Seven dissident suspects arrested](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1745000/1745872.stm) [Shot robber ‘was republican paramilitary’](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/events/northern_ireland/latest_news/87549.stm) [Weapons cache uncovered](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/northern_ireland/1841201.stm) [Gardai recover bomb materials](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1080000/1080314.stm) [Police kill man after siege](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/world/europe/newsid_721000/721099.stm) And, importantly: [‘No evidence’ of Garda collusion](http://news.bbc.co.uk/hi/english/uk/northern_ireland/newsid_1303000/1303588.stm) Now, I’ve shown you mine, let’s see yours. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/23 "2002-08-22T17:21:04Z")
OK. As a nationalist, allow me to respond to TST’s claims. 1. The IRA are not representatives of the Irish Republic. In fact, they don’t recognise it, calling it “The Free State”. Ireland, to the IRA, is all 32 counties. 2. If this debate centers on Government complicity in terrorist acts, may I introduce [The murder of Pat Finucane](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/panorama/2019301.stm) into evidence? 3. Bite My Crank. 4. BTW, Is it not the British Government that is making strong moves to begin working with the [New Improved Gaddafi](http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk_politics/2175314.stm)? So, before you continue to make unfounded allegations about the Irish people as a whole, have a litttle think about what a fool you will make of yourself by doing so. But of course, as I’m Irish, I’m just a terrorist to you. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 6:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/24 "2002-08-22T18:35:27Z")
**Andy** , ok, you mean it wasn’t just the British who underestimated the U-Boat threat? Quite. **London\_Calling** , I said English, because one gets the distinct impression it was Churchill and a couple other _English_ types who were calling the shots. Naturally, the rest of the folks were contributing, too. Being an American who was possibly saved from a hospital visit by the charity of two Canadians, I acknowledge their generosity. The Canadians put huge resources into WWII, ofttimes being given second rate equipment, assignments etc. The book “U-Boats against Canada” has a number of interesting points to make. “Germany … knew, too, that Canada traditionally considered support of Britain a higher priority than her own home defence.” Maybe we should start a thread… “Are Canadians _Too_ Nice?” ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 7:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/25 "2002-08-22T19:51:41Z")
Oh Dear. Well as you can see I have managed to find an uncensored PC (check the time on the post its 20 to 9 here). I can’t say I’m suprised at the response to what is after all an opinion. This thread is going to be a train wreck though, because of one simple fact. I will be in the position of attempting to answer 30+ rather infalamatory posts at once, then not having access for another 24 hours. As a discussion it isn’t going to work unless someone wants to set up a swearing free version that I can access in real time. but lets have a go. Apologies for the millions of posts. I don’t know how to quote more than one person at a time. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/26 "2002-08-22T19:58:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by jjimm \* > \*\*In [this post](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=131593#post2383376) > > The people who have been “fighting a war against Britain” over the past 30 years, some of whom have been “happy to deal with Gadaffi”, are terrorists from North and South of the Northern Irish border. They have nothing to do with the state of Ireland. > Another question for you: have you ever _been_ here? Because I must say, for a country that is “fighting a war” against my country, the natives are jolly friendly. > > So, **owlstretchingtime** , put your money where your bullshit is: give me some examples of Ireland welcoming “anyone who would hurt us”. \*\* Well lets have a go. Where do those terrorists (at least you’re not calling the baby murdering scum “freedom fighters”) pledge allegance to? Surrey? Where do they hide when they’re on the run? Bournemouth? And the PIRA’s dealings with Ghadaffi are a matter of record. So is the Irish governemt incompetent or complicit. It must be one or the other. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/27 "2002-08-22T20:03:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by partly\_warmer \* > \*\*Not defending old owlstretching… but Ireland has had a somewhat ambiguous attitude at times towards England. While looking for a cite for the port issue I had in mind I found this site, which mentions that 70,000 Irish served with the British in WWII, even though they were officially neutral. [http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/General/vc.html](http://indigo.ie/~kfinlay/General/vc.html) > > At the same time, Ireland’s decision WWII not to allow the allies access to Irish ports and airfields cost uncounted lives. The reasons for this are apparently complicated, and I’m not familiar with the details of the argument, but the situation has made me angry. Maybe it’s time to forget this kind of anger. [http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/000511.shtml](http://www.sonic.net/~bstone/archives/000511.shtml) > > We can either lament that country X hasn’t always been 100% at all times in support with our country Y’s position, or we can move on and ask how countries with many of the same objectives end up damaging one another. > > Given the current climate with Iraq, Saudi Arabia, and Pakistan, learning how to avoid these situations seems important, and bringing up old grievances just a way to perpetuate war. \*\* Ireland’s WWII record should be a matter of national disgrace. Naturally it’s a matter of “National Pride” DeValera signed Hitler’s condolence book. Once again; They will welcome anyone who can harm us. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/28 "2002-08-22T20:12:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by micilin \* > \*\* > Why was I posting to this thread in the first place? Oh yeah, to call **owlst** a fucking ignorant bigot. > > **Casdave’s** right by the looks of things. \*\* Oh dear another cyber warrior. My real life record is well enough known here. You wouldn’t speak like that if I were standing next to you. Save your breath and go back to your homework cockmonger. Happy now? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/29 "2002-08-22T20:15:58Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\* > It has nothing to do with any particular issue. It’s just a protective policy. The neutral country makes a public statement that it won’t fight in any war, on any side (except if attacked, of course). But of course in order to work (assuming that the neutral country isn’t strategically important enough to justify the losses involved in attacking it anyway), the warring parties must feel confident that the country will actually stay neutral. > So, I suppose that declaring itself neutral is a confidence builder. If said country makes a big deal about its neutrality, build its foreign policy around this concept and has actually avoided being involved in any conflict for an extended period, it’s more convincing that if it declares its neutrality only about a particular issue at a particular moment. \*\* It’s based around an “anyone but Britain” feeling. We are the obvious ally We are the people they don’t like Cognative dissonance (sp?) ahoy! ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/30 "2002-08-22T20:17:10Z")
Because of course, the British Government is doing SO MUCH about Loyalist death squads, they mush be either complicit or incompetent, right? ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/31 "2002-08-22T20:21:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by yojimbo \* > \*\* Yeah, why didn’t the men who had fought a armed struggle with > As for **owlstretchingtime** well he’s already shown that he has a fairly one sided view on things when it comes to issues regarding Ireland and the UK in the Bloody Sunday Thread which I can’t seem to find. > > Yes some of my countrymen have and still do class themselves “at war” with Britain > But that’s not the national feeling with regard to Britain. \*\* Two things. I hope you do find that thread because you will find that I admit I am wrong and have been won over by the weight of rational arguement. The same could happen here. Could it happen in reverse? And I think its somewhat more than “some”. Is it the same “tiny minority” that I used to belong to? ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/32 "2002-08-22T20:24:24Z")
To begin on a helpfull note: to do multiple quote simply surround each piece of individual text you want to quote with the tags \ and \ replacing the pointy brackets for square ones. > [@](#): > > My real life record is well enough known here. > > You wouldn’t speak like that if I were standing next to you. Do you mean by this that other train wreck of a thread about football holiganism? Is this a reference to how “tough” you are? ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/33 "2002-08-22T20:27:25Z")
I actually quite like Britain. Friendly people, nice pubs, good fun. I watch the football played there, I listen to bands who come from there. I have no problem with British people. I’m very, very partial to one Briton in particular. The Irish, as a whole, havent got anything against Britain, or British people. We have got issue with some of the previous actions and attitudes of some of your subjects, but its not held agains the average Briton. You have quite a large chip on your shoulder. You are doing nothing in this thread but trolling. This is the last correspondence you and I will ever have. You have a lot of misplaced anger. I hope you get help, and the deity of your choice have mercy on your soul. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/34 "2002-08-22T20:28:07Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by jjimm \* > **truthstretchngtime** claims not to be able to access this thread due to swearing. However, back in the original thread, in a response for a request for evidence, he’s posted this:OK, may I summarise your assertions here:[ol][li]Irish terrorists have planted bombs in England.[]The Irish state gives them “support and succour”.[/ol]Am I right? If so, I refute your assertions quite easily, to whit:[ol][]Half of the Republican terrorists are from Northern Ireland. In fact, there are many terrorists in Northern Ireland of both persuasions - which is under UK jursidiction. By your assertion, these “someone elses” make the UK a “terrorist state” too…[_]The Irish Police and Special Branch division track down terrorists, unearth arms caches and training camps all the time. This is hardly “harbouring”. While there are supporters of terrorism both sides of the border, those supporters are in the distinct minority.[/ol]You will note, **Mr. Stretching** , that I have refrained from insulting you thus far, preferring to give you the benefit of the doubt. However, I shall now call you an ignorant, bigoted fucking twatwhistle. [/li] > **You ignorant, bigoted twat.** > > **Ignorant** : because you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about (you proved this both here in the Bloody Sunday thread). > **Bigoted** : because you are condemning a people and its government based on the actions of a small number of extremists. Kind of like the attitude of people who blow up shopping centres to get at the government. > **Twat** : see the above two points. > > Before you accuse me of collusion, I must reinforce that I am English, from a British military family; I have absolutely no love for terrorists; I am not a Republican. But, unlike you, I know a little about the situation. \*\* I refer you to my cyber warrior quote earlier. My phone number is (really) \ ask for Dave. Lets meet up. Then we’ll see how brave you are. Untill then stow the abuse As to your arguement. I stick by my statements. You cannot have it both ways. Are these people Irish or not? I believe the Irish governement could solve this if they wanted to. However they refuse to cooperate with our security services (that “neutrality” excuse again). ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/35 "2002-08-22T20:32:27Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*I actually quite like Britain. Friendly people, nice pubs, good fun. I watch the football played there, I listen to bands who come from there. I have no problem with British people. I’m very, very partial to one Briton in particular. > > The Irish, as a whole, havent got anything against Britain, or British people. > > We have got issue with some of the previous actions and attitudes of some of your subjects, but its not held agains the average Briton. > > You have quite a large chip on your shoulder. You are doing nothing in this thread but trolling. > > This is the last correspondence you and I will ever have. You have a lot of misplaced anger. I hope you get help, and the deity of your choice have mercy on your soul. \*\* You probably won’t believe me but I feel much the same in reverse (WRT individual Irish people) I am not trolling. I believe what I say. Chip? Maybe. Maybe it got there for a reason. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/36 "2002-08-22T20:34:43Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by TwistofFate \* > \*\*Because of course, the British Government is doing SO MUCH about Loyalist death squads, they mush be either complicit or incompetent, right? \*\* My point exactly. They are one or the other. I think we’d even agree which one. ---
**Author:** ![owlstretchingtime](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/958977/32.png) [@owlstretchingtime](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/owlstretchingtime)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/37 "2002-08-22T20:37:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Francesca \* > \*\* > > Do you mean by this that other train wreck of a thread about football holiganism? Is this a reference to how “tough” you are? \*\* Yes. I have been called a lot of names. I’m a big broad shouldered lad so I’m not crying. I am replying in the same coin. I’d rather have an abuse free discussion (honestly, because I think I’d win it and I know I won’t win a flame war) . And there’s no need for inverted commas. ---
**Author:** ![Francesca](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/9fc348/32.png) [@Francesca](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Francesca)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/38 "2002-08-22T20:38:27Z")
Oh my fucking christ, I can’t believe what an idiot you are. You left your PHONE NUMBER ON A PUBLIC MESSAGE BOARD. And then you make a less than veiled threat of violence with “Then we’ll see how brave you are”. I am genuinely astounded at your stupidity. ---
**Author:** ![partly\_warmer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/bc8723/32.png) [@partly\_warmer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/partly_warmer)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/39 "2002-08-22T20:39:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\*It has nothing to do with any particular issue. It’s just a protective policy. The neutral country makes a public statement that it won’t fight in any war, on any side (except if attacked, of course). But of course in order to work (assuming that the neutral country isn’t strategically important enough to justify the losses involved in attacking it anyway), the warring parties must feel confident that the country will actually stay neutral. > > So, I suppose that declaring itself neutral is a confidence builder. If said country makes a big deal about its neutrality, build its foreign policy around this concept and has actually avoided being involved in any conflict for an extended period, it’s more convincing that if it declares its neutrality only about a particular issue at a particular moment. \*\* I need to think this through at some length, so maybe I’ll return to the subject another time, in another thread. Is it true that neutrality means simply that a country hasn’t declared war against either side in a conflict? If so, “neutrality” could mean anything from pacifism to isolationism to overt terrorism. Take, for example, the United States in 1941. They were neutral – not having declared war on Germany. In actual fact they were gearing up for war, and providing Britain with massive aid, for example Lend-Lease ships. Putting yourself in Germany’s place, if you had the resources wouldn’t you have attacked “neutral” America right away? The problem with not being neutral is that a country needs to buy into the whole “politically correct” package of one side or the other. The problem with being neutral is it’s hard for a natural ally to make full use of a neutral country’s resources. War is such a mess of mistakes in the first place, declaring neutrality can be pretty much tantamount to a country removing itself from a useful role in a war. Damned if you do, damned if you don’t. Glad I’m not a politician. ---
**Author:** ![TwistofFate](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/cdc98d/32.png) [@TwistofFate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TwistofFate)\ **Post date:** [August 22, 2002, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-owlstretchingtime-ireland-is-not-fighting-a-war-against-britain/124963/40 "2002-08-22T20:41:31Z")
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