# Oh PLEASE with the fucking T.S.A. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671 "2008-09-22T13:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![shantih](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/f6c823/32.png) [@shantih](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shantih)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 11:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/81 "2008-09-23T11:15:18Z")
> [@Ale](#): > > Misplaced luggage, pfft!.. an airline sent _me_ to the wrong country once. šŸ˜‰ > No, really, they did. Holy frijoles! Really? Details, please! Was it at least a more interesting country than the one you had planned to go to? ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 11:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/82 "2008-09-23T11:17:20Z")
America is shooting itself in the foot > [@](#): > > Once No. 1, the United States has dropped to third as a travel destination, behind France and Spain. > > How Homeland Security Harms U.S. Image > The visa process is so cumbersome that many foreigners have stopped trying. > Business travel into the U.S. is down 10 percent > By Fareed Zakaria - Newsweek - March 5, 2007 > [http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/022607.html](http://www.fareedzakaria.com/articles/newsweek/022607.html) > > ā€œWe seem to have lost the ability to think rationally about security,ā€ says Stephen Flynn, among the foremost U.S. experts on homeland security and the author of the new book ā€œThe Edge of Disaster.ā€ ā€œWeā€™ve created an incentive system for border checks in which all the emphasis is on stopping, screening, double-checking. Thereā€™s little scope for common sense, discretion and judgment.ā€ The result is an extremely expensive system that ties up Americans, wastes resources and is making the United States a place people try to avoid. > ā€¦ > As the world has been opening up, the United States is closing itself off. Total international arrivals into the United States declined 10 percent between 2000 and 2004. One survey shows that business travel into the United States has declined by 10 percent in the last two years, at a time when places like London, Singapore and Dubai are showing strong increases. Once No. 1, the United States has dropped to third as a travel destination, behind France and Spain. Over the last 14 years, global tourism has been thriving, having increased by 52 percent. But Americaā€™s share has been declining, down 36 percent in that same time frame. The Discover America group points out that travel and tourism is the third largest industry in the United States, employing 17 million people and generating $105 billion in tax revenues. > [@](#): > > [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/06/AR2008020604763\_pf.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/02/06/AR2008020604763_pf.html) > > Clarity Sought on Electronics Searches > U.S. Agents Seize Travelersā€™ Devices ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 11:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/83 "2008-09-23T11:39:23Z")
> [@Dead\_Badger](#): > > Not really; these threads are a classic self-selecting sample. Itā€™s entirely normal that precisely those people who have lost baggage will be the ones contributing to threads about shitty travel experiences. > > Iā€™ve never had anything go missing either, but it doesnā€™t mean those complaining have made it up. There is also the fact that satistics (as David Letterman likes to pronounce it) can be misinterpreted and even used to fudge or conceal the relevant data. I can say only one in a million of my components fails but if my product is a computer with two million of those components then every single one of my computers is failing. If an airline in counting on-time performance removes enough causes (weather, government, air traffic control, etc) from the statistics then they can be on time 100% of the time. If I and my wife fly roundtrip from A to C with a stopover in B and check two bags each thatā€™s four bags times four segments = 16 bag\*segments. If any one bag is lost our trip is ruined or inconvenienced. The chances of this happening in this case are 16 times greater than that of an individual bag being lost on an individual segment. As I say, often satistics only tell a very narrow fact which then needs to be interpreted. I remember an example where some university was sued for discrimination because overall it accepted more men than women but when you analyzed the data it turned out each individual school was accepting more women than men. It is the perfect example of how you can manipulate statistics to prove anything you want. > [@](#): > > At a certain university statistics showed a higher percentage of men were accepted than of women. 65% of men who applied were admitted while only 52% of women who applied were admitted. This was taken as clear proof of discrimination and something had to be done about itā€¦ So the university conducted further research to ascertain which schools specifically were discriminating. They centered on schools A and B and found out that: Of a total of 100 male applicants, 80 had applied to A of which 60 (75%) were accepted and 20 had applied to B of which 5 (25%) were accepted. The overall acceptance rate was thus 65%. > > When it came to the women, out of 100, 40 had applied to A of which 32 (80%) were accepted and 60 had applied to B of which 20 (33%) were accepted. The overall acceptance rate was thus 52%. > > BUT now we see what would seem impossible and that is that even though the overall acceptance percentage of women was lower than that of men, when analyzed by schools the percentage of women accepted is HIGHER in every single case! (80 Vs. 75% in A and 33 Vs. 25% in B) > > It turns out no school was discriminating. What was happening is that more men were applying to the college which was easier to get into while more women were applying to the college which was more difficult to enter. But in every case it was more difficult for the men to enter even though they had a higher overall acceptance rate. Always take your statistics with a grain of salt. They can say what they want but I have had luggage lost much more often that the statistics suggest. ---
**Author:** ![Dead\_Badger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/848f3c/32.png) [@Dead\_Badger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dead_Badger)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/84 "2008-09-23T12:37:11Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > If I and my wife fly roundtrip from A to C with a stopover in B and check two bags each thatā€™s four bags times four segments = 16 bag\*segments. If any one bag is lost our trip is ruined or inconvenienced. The chances of this happening in this case are 16 times greater than that of an individual bag being lost on an individual segment. Yeah, absolutely (well, a bit under 16, but very close to it). You wouldnā€™t have to make too many trips to see the inlaws to become almost certain of having lost something at some point. ---
**Author:** ![Kyla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/eada6e/32.png) [@Kyla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kyla)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/85 "2008-09-23T12:43:49Z")
> [@Noone\_Special](#): > > While Iā€™m not belittling what you went through, and yes there are plenty of power-tripping a\*\*holes in Israeli security too, I think youā€™re seeing \*American \*security the way I am seeing \*Israeli \*-- through the eyes of a Citizen. Read several posts upthread by non-Americans ( **RedFury** ā€™s posts come to mind, but othersā€™ as well) and you will notice they have the same (valid) complaints against TSA as you (validly) have against Israeli security. Okay, point taken. ---
**Author:** ![Shagnasty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9dc877/32.png) [@Shagnasty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shagnasty)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/86 "2008-09-23T14:11:01Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > My only consolation is that it was Alitalia and I have been continuously watching them on the brink of bankruptcy and now finally it looks like theyā€™re going over the edge. Good riddance to one of the worst airlines I have ever flown. How DARE You! Alitalia is not the worst airline you have ever flown. It is literally the worst large business ever created. It is the Italian state airline after all :shudder:. I have lots or horror stories about them but the worst was arriving at a Paris airport at 4:00 am to come back to Boston and the flight being delayed, We had a two year old daughter and the Italians love lines which we had to switch from one to the other for 6 hours because our flight was delayed. We could no go through the check-points to go to the bathroom or get food or water at all. I begged anybody to get us food or water. I got about 2 ounces of water which I had to give to my two year old daughter to keep her alive. Once we finally boarded, I asked for water and water over and over and they would just give a sip even though we were obviously dehydrated. I couldnā€™t take it anymore so I went to the bathroom lavatory and turned on the sink and drank and drank and drank as much as I wanted. The next day, I developed this massive rash that covered all of my upper body including my face and scalp. It too about six months to heal. Alitalia doesnā€™t suck in the way that people say Wal-Mart does. It is in a class all of its own. It is a horrible business. My daughters are 25% Italian and I donā€™t want them to be exposed to the culture anymore mainly because of Alitalia. It would be the same if they were part black and we had to fly Nigger Airlines. It is that bad. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/87 "2008-09-23T14:23:38Z")
And if there werenā€™t enough inconveniences already, as of next month you have to get a permit through this website [Electronic System for Travel Authorization](http://www.cbp.gov/xp/cgov/travel/id_visa/esta/). Click on the application link and they clearly tell you, _you will be monitored_ prior to issuing the permit. Unreal. Howā€™s that not police-state like? ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/88 "2008-09-23T15:36:51Z")
I have managed to resist flying (mostly) for the past 7 years. Our vacations take a little more planning and a little compromising (my wife doesnā€™t always appreciate my ā€œstand for civil libertiesā€) but I certainly havenā€™t missed flying. The few times Iā€™ve flown since 9/11 I just shake my head that our knee-jerk reaction to terrorism is to take away the rights of our citizens. The terrorist got just what they wanted and with the help of our government. All Americans should refuse to go through these security lines, even if it means not flying. I know a lot of people need to fly for work, you poor folks have to suck it up I guess. But there are few reasons why a freedom loving American should voluntarily give up his or her civil rights just to get somewhere a few hours earlier. Itā€™s a crying shame. Especially since we really need to work on our other forms of mass transit in this county, like trains and busses. ---
**Author:** ![Atrael](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Atrael](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atrael)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/89 "2008-09-23T15:41:42Z")
I think Iā€™m more upset at the fact that I canā€™t bring **food** with me more than anything. Like other posters have mentioned I fly regularly enough that I know the drill by now. When the family went on vacation in June, I had everyone preped before we even got to the airport on what to do/not do. Even with a 3 year old, a 1 year old, and two grandmothers we got through without too much issue. For those interested in the security of their checked luggage, I happened to sit in on a lecture at a hacker conference in July that I thought was fascinating. [Here](http://thelasthope.org/talks.html) is a link to a page that has an audio download of the talk. Look for ā€œPacking and the Friendly Skies - Why Transporting Firearms May Be the Best Way to Safeguard Your Tech When You Flyā€ and listen to the audio. Basic point the guy makes is that if you check firearms in your baggage, you are **required** to have a lock that the TSA cannot open. I just thought it funny as hell that the best way to protect your belongings is to carry a gun. Note that you donā€™t actually have to have a gun, just a gunlike object. An airpistol would count. ---
**Author:** ![shiftless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9c0ed/32.png) [@shiftless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shiftless)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/90 "2008-09-23T15:42:44Z")
Oh, and Ilitalia - one of our few flights - was the worst airline ever(not TSAā€™s fault). My wife spent 12 hours waiting in the Rome airport for our lost luggage which will arrive ā€œany momentā€. When she finally threatened to start screaming someone suddenly found the luggage in the back room. Itā€™s a miracle! ---
**Author:** ![TroubleAgain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/e480ec/32.png) [@TroubleAgain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TroubleAgain)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 3:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/91 "2008-09-23T15:50:54Z")
> [@Darth\_Nader](#): > > A pen, or pencil? Not usuallyā€¦they seem to disappear into thin air, especially when I need one.:smack: ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/92 "2008-09-23T16:14:04Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Thanks man. Itā€™s good to be back. I thought nobody had noticed me. I noticed. Howā€™s life on the Iberian peninsula? Oh, and TSA sucks, but itā€™s our collective faults, for us US citizens putting up with this nonsense which does not make us more secure. ---
**Author:** ![Kaio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c68b51/32.png) [@Kaio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaio)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/93 "2008-09-23T17:19:18Z")
> [@IntelSoldier](#): > > I donā€™t understand why anyone carries anything on a plane at all. Check everything and go empty-handed. I can understand laptops, books, and mags, but what else could you possibly need before you get your checked bag back? Why do you need hand lotion and ointment and water bottles and scissors and glue and matches and crap like that?!?! For a flight less than two hours, I need nothing but my ticket and wallet. My luggage was lost on a puddle jumper flight that was 45 minutes long and for which Iā€™d been checked in and waiting at the gate for an hour. Even better, I was in a foreign country, traveling by train to meet friends an hour from the airport, and my address book with their phone number was in my checked bag. I had absolutely no way to contact them. Luckily the airline finally got it together and sent it along on the only other flight that day, but I had to wait in the airport for 3 hours, when I had specifically chosen the earlier flight so Iā€™d have more time to spend with my friends. And if Iā€™d been on the later flight, I couldnā€™t have gotten my bag until the next day. Iā€™ve had my luggage lost on a number of other occasions, too (and in those cases I had to keep calling the airline for a week saying ā€œWhereā€™s my bag??!ā€ ā€¦thankfully those were on the trip home, at least), but that was what really did it for me. It was basically an overnight bag, no problem carrying it on, and Iā€™m not going to be stuck somewhere far from home without so much as a change of underwear. Plus Iā€™m not interested in risking theft of my stuff, either, unless I absolutely have to. If I keep my things with me, I have no worries on either of those fronts, and most of the time I donā€™t need more than an overnight bag. Especially when I understand that the airlines make no guarantee of any kind that your luggage wonā€™t disappear off the face of the earth. No thanks. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/94 "2008-09-23T17:35:17Z")
Well, in the US it doesnā€™t entirely disappear. It eventually ends up for sale [here](http://www.unclaimedbaggage.com/index.html). ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/95 "2008-09-23T17:44:34Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Well, in the US it doesnā€™t entirely disappear. It eventually ends up for sale [here](http://www.unclaimedbaggage.com/index.html). Cite? Iā€™ve never heard of that outfit, and Iā€™ve never heard of any airline doing business with them. Ours, at least, destroys or donates to charity all unclaimed baggage after a specified period of time. ---
**Author:** ![Scumpup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ce73a5/32.png) [@Scumpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scumpup)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/96 "2008-09-23T17:47:12Z")
Read their ā€œabout usā€ page if you want details. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/97 "2008-09-23T17:55:47Z")
> [@Scumpup](#): > > Read their ā€œabout usā€ page if you want details. Sorry, I should have been clearer. Cite from a source which _isnā€™t_ the organization in question? ---
**Author:** ![Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/qadgop_the_mercotan/32/83_2.png) [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qadgop_the_Mercotan)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/98 "2008-09-23T18:00:11Z")
> [@atomicbadgerrace](#): > > Sorry, I should have been clearer. Cite from a source which _isnā€™t_ the organization in question? Hereā€™s some recent news articles: [Examiner is back - Examiner.com](http://www.examiner.com/x-865-New-York-Budget-Travel-Examiner~y2008m9d17-Where-Does-All-The-Lost-Luggage-Go) [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26390895/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26390895/) Iā€™ve been aware of this operation for years. The airlines have certainly never hidden what they do with ā€˜unclaimedā€™ luggage. ---
**Author:** ![atomicbadgerrace](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/8e7dd6/32.png) [@atomicbadgerrace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/atomicbadgerrace)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/99 "2008-09-23T18:09:57Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Hereā€™s some recent news articles: [Examiner is back - Examiner.com](http://www.examiner.com/x-865-New-York-Budget-Travel-Examiner~y2008m9d17-Where-Does-All-The-Lost-Luggage-Go) > [http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26390895/](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/26390895/) > > Iā€™ve been aware of this operation for years. The airlines have certainly never hidden what they do with ā€˜unclaimedā€™ luggage. Interesting, thanks for the links. I know where all of _our_ luggage goes, but I suppose I need more friends in our competitorsā€™ baggage services departments. šŸ˜ƒ ---
**Author:** ![LurkMeister](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/3da27b/32.png) [@LurkMeister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LurkMeister)\ **Post date:** [September 23, 2008, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/100 "2008-09-23T18:48:35Z")
> [@Qadgop\_the\_Mercotan](#): > > Oh, and TSA sucks, but itā€™s our collective faults, for us US citizens putting up with this nonsense which does not make us more secure. Just as a point of interest, because Iā€™ve heard this comment many times before but never gave it any serious thought myself: What options do us US citizens have in terms of ā€œnot putting up with this nonsenseā€? Write our Congresscritters to complain about how inefficient and ineffective TSA is, and demand that something be done to change it? Refuse to cooperate with regulations we find idiotic and intrusive, at the risk of being detained and charged with who-knows-what? Perhaps that would be a subject for a whole new thread: What rights do ordinary citizens have when faced with government regulations which they feel violate their rights or needlessly complicate their lives without yielding any effective action? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671.md?page=6)