# Oh PLEASE with the fucking T.S.A. **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [September 22, 2008, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671 "2008-09-22T13:56:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 1:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/121 "2008-09-25T01:18:23Z")
Interesting. If **Diggleblop** ’s account is to be believed, then the T.S.A. has unilaterally decided that their need for on-the-job training supersedes the Fourth Amendment. I would very much like to see **that** followed up on. Any A.C.L.U. members on the board who feel strongly enough about this to note the issue to them? ---
**Author:** ![Sublight](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/439d5e/32.png) [@Sublight](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sublight)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/122 "2008-09-25T04:10:59Z")
> [@RedFury](#): > > [url=[http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/11/29/entry-to-us-scares-away-tourism-business/](http://www.homelandstupidity.us/2006/11/29/entry-to-us-scares-away-tourism-business/)] **Entry to U.S. scares away tourism, business** [/url Definitely true for me. I’ll fly back home every couple of years so my son can visit his grandparents, but my regular touring yen are going elsewhere. ---
**Author:** ![Grumman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/43a26b/32.png) [@Grumman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grumman)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/123 "2008-09-25T13:50:38Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > So, for training purposes, they may make passengers strip down to nothing, just so they can become familiar with how to do it, just in case it ever needs to be done “for real” for the screener. And no, you won’t know who is training and who isn’t. That’s disgusting. Shouldn’t they try to _avoid_ humiliating innocent people by using them for training purposes without their permission? ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/124 "2008-09-25T14:03:30Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > Interesting. If **Diggleblop** ’s account is to be believed, then the T.S.A. has unilaterally decided that their need for on-the-job training supersedes the Fourth Amendment. I would very much like to see **that** followed up on. > > Any A.C.L.U. members on the board who feel strongly enough about this to note the issue to them? Huge vague memories here, but I remember something along the lines of presence in an airport past the security checkpoint, i.e. undertaking air travel, is legally considered to be a voluntary waiver of many constitutional protections against search and seizure. ---
**Author:** ![enipla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/54ee81/32.png) [@enipla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/enipla)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/125 "2008-09-25T17:02:56Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > So, for training purposes, they may make passengers strip down to nothing, just so they can become familiar with how to do it, just in case it ever needs to be done “for real” for the screener. And no, you won’t know who is training and who isn’t. :eek: Are you serious? Holy shit. If I found out I was strip searched for ‘training’ I would turn over every rock until I found out a way to sue or otherwise punish those responsible. ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/126 "2008-09-25T20:52:38Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Huge vague memories here, but I remember something along the lines of presence in an airport past the security checkpoint, i.e. undertaking air travel, is legally considered to be a voluntary waiver of many constitutional protections against search and seizure. You mean similar to the reasoning about shops being allowed to search your bags to prevent theft (and the legality of how far those not-real-cops are allowed to go is regularly debated here on the SDMB)? But aren’t those security forces bound by strict laws - they can do some things, but not go beyond that? How can the TSA not be bound by any rules? Wouldn’t that be more effective than writing to your congressperson - taking the lack of rules, procedures and oversight of the TSA to the Supreme Court for violation of some constitutional rights? Oh I forget, you have no right to human dignity, only to freedom, and since you’re free not to fly (even if there’s an ocean to be crossed, you _could_ take a ship - and with oil prices going up, a ship might be in the future not be more expensive than a plane ticket), so your rights are not violated if I understand correctly. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/127 "2008-09-25T21:13:30Z")
Well shops aren’t state agents, so there are different issues at stake there. I never said the TSA weren’t bound by any rules. But they certainly don’t have to have the same level of suspicion to search your luggage/frisk you as a police officer would have to have if you were walking down the street. ---
**Author:** ![Sunspace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sunspace/32/1250_2.png) [@Sunspace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sunspace)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/128 "2008-09-25T21:20:13Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well shops aren’t state agents, so there are different issues at stake there. \ Well, after the US government takes an equity position in all those companies after the bailout, that may change… \ ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/129 "2008-09-25T21:29:59Z")
> [@Furious\_Marmot](#): > > Worse still, is it possible that the rag picks up more and more particles of innocuous chemicals (say, gasoline from the soles of shoes) from all the bags, until the amount on it surpasses the threshold that sets off the bomb alarm? Not really, and the [GCMS](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gas_chromatography-mass_spectrometry), and I don’t think gasoline will trip the machine. Although, those machines cost a bundle, I’m quite surprised to hear that they used the same cloth over and over. :eek: The first part of your story was quite funny! ---
**Author:** ![constanze](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f9ae1b/32.png) [@constanze](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/constanze)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/130 "2008-09-25T21:34:19Z")
> [@villa](#): > > Well shops aren’t state agents, so there are different issues at stake there. But are the TSA employed by the state or by the airlines, or the airports? If one airport decided the convenience of the passengers would be worth more than the hassle, and do away with the useless screenings, hiring competent and friendly security people (instead of power-tripping people), could the state prevent them? > [@](#): > > I never said the TSA weren’t bound by any rules. But they certainly don’t have to have the same level of suspicion to search your luggage/frisk you as a police officer would have to have if you were walking down the street. That quite surprises me. In some of the older threads about the TSA, there were several quotes to the effect that there are no fixed rules and regulations about what the TSA is and isn’t allowed to do, esp. with regard to confiscating and throwing away your personal belongings instead of giving you the chance to put it in checked luggage or similar. \* Why else all the horror stories where people have no recourse of complaining to supervisors or similar? Why has e.g. when the story about the woman who had to remove her nipple piercing, nobody slapped the TSA agent in charge for being out of line, unless there is no line? \*I still wonder why nobody has thought of setting up a cheap service by providing stamped envelopes at the checkpoint for about 1 dollar (1.50, whatever) so people can mail their non-acceptable items to themselves instead of having their scissors, knitting needles etc thrown away. ---
**Author:** ![Santo\_Rugger](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e95f7d/32.png) [@Santo\_Rugger](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Santo_Rugger)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/131 "2008-09-25T21:38:17Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > But are the TSA employed by the state or by the airlines, or the airports? If one airport decided the convenience of the passengers would be worth more than the hassle, and do away with the useless screenings, hiring competent and friendly security people (instead of power-tripping people), could the state prevent them? I’m pretty sure the state, because I saw TSA employees screening people to get into an Obama rally. ---
**Author:** ![villa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/bc79bd/32.png) [@villa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/villa)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/132 "2008-09-25T21:43:41Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > But are the TSA employed by the state or by the airlines, or the airports? If one airport decided the convenience of the passengers would be worth more than the hassle, and do away with the useless screenings, hiring competent and friendly security people (instead of power-tripping people), could the state prevent them? Whoever employs them (and I believe it is the Department of Homeland Security), they are state actors for the purposes of constitutional law. > [@constanze](#): > > That quite surprises me. In some of the older threads about the TSA, there were several quotes to the effect that there are no fixed rules and regulations about what the TSA is and isn’t allowed to do, esp. with regard to confiscating and throwing away your personal belongings instead of giving you the chance to put it in checked luggage or similar. \* Why else all the horror stories where people have no recourse of complaining to supervisors or similar? Why has e.g. when the story about the woman who had to remove her nipple piercing, nobody slapped the TSA agent in charge for being out of line, unless there is no line? Of course there are rules they operate under. A TSA agent would probably get in a certain degree of trouble if he or she routinely shot travellers. Or if he or she refused to allow African Americans to fly. The scales have, I would argue, tipped too far in allow too much leeway to TSA employees, but that is not the same as “no rules.” ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/133 "2008-09-25T23:32:03Z")
> [@LurkMeister](#): > > What rights do ordinary citizens have when faced with government regulations which they feel violate their rights or needlessly complicate their lives without yielding any effective action? I thought you guys answered that question already back in 1776. ---
**Author:** ![Koxinga](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/4af34b/32.png) [@Koxinga](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Koxinga)\ **Post date:** [September 25, 2008, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/134 "2008-09-25T23:39:55Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > I thought you guys answered that question already back in 1776. Best answer of the day. If we had an animated applause smilie, I’d use ten of them here. And in a sign of the times, my impression is that there are those in the government who would consider references to 1776 to be _subversive_. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 2:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/135 "2008-09-26T02:28:20Z")
> [@gaffa](#): > > I take Amtrak. I could carry on a bag containing a live ocelot wrapped in blocks of C4 and not have a problem. You should carry on a bag containing a live _otter_ wrapped in C4: that way, when they ask you what it is you can announce… It’s an otter you can’t defuse! Thank you, I’ll be here all week. ---
**Author:** ![Cartooniverse](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cartooniverse/32/3084_2.png) [@Cartooniverse](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cartooniverse)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 3:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/136 "2008-09-26T03:33:10Z")
> [@enipla](#): > > :eek: Are you serious? Holy shit. If I found out I was strip searched for ‘training’ I would turn over every rock until I found out a way to sue or otherwise punish those responsible. You wouldn’t have to turn over many rocks. There is already [ample precedent](http://www.cnn.com/2003/HEALTH/03/11/pelvic.exams.ap/). Would you rather be strip searched awake, or examined genitally by a group of trainees while asleep ? Been keeping up on this thread. I flew again today. Had something go missing, to my eye- during a very thorough bag search / swab. I watched the entire event, and yet something was missing. I realized it upstairs. Went back down. All of the TSA agents could not have been more polite and helpful, looking around the table, etc. Two did come over, one at a time, and quietly say, " I don’t think he took it, ok? " I hadn’t accused him of doing so !! Item never turned up and boy, when I got to my hotel a little while ago, I did rip stuff apart looking. Weird. The abuse of power and lack of intelligent approach is galling. ---
**Author:** ![Cervaise](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cervaise/32/16693_2.png) [@Cervaise](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cervaise)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 5:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/137 "2008-09-26T05:32:33Z")
> [@Scissorjack](#): > > Thank you, I’ll be here all week. \ ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 8:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/138 "2008-09-26T08:59:41Z")
> [@constanze](#): > > Why has e.g. when the story about the woman who had to remove her nipple piercing, nobody slapped the TSA agent in charge for being out of line, unless there is no line? OK, I agree with 99% of what’s been said, HOWEVER - in this case TSA rules apparently _required_ that jewelry that set off detectors be removed. The screen _has to_ follow those rules, she doesn’t make them or have a choice in them. There was no exception for nipple rings or anything else in those rules. Don’t blame the screener, blame the person who wrote the rules. It is my understanding that they have since been amended to avoid similar body jewelry problems in the future. Whether that’s actually the case or not I don’t know. > [@](#): > > \*I still wonder why nobody has thought of setting up a cheap service by providing stamped envelopes at the checkpoint for about 1 dollar (1.50, whatever) so people can mail their non-acceptable items to themselves instead of having their scissors, knitting needles etc thrown away. I don’t know why either - sounds like a good idea to me, and I’ve heard suggested upteen zillion times. ---
**Author:** ![sailor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a587f6/32.png) [@sailor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sailor)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 9:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/139 "2008-09-26T09:29:08Z")
> [@Broomstick](#): > > Don’t blame the screener, blame the person who wrote the rules. Why not both? Why not everybody from the rude TSA jerk all the way up the chain to the Idiot in Chief and then on to the American people who put him there and who continue to support such idiocy? There’s plenty of blame to go around. ---
**Author:** ![Broomstick](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/broomstick/32/246_2.png) [@Broomstick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Broomstick)\ **Post date:** [September 26, 2008, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671/140 "2008-09-26T12:17:26Z")
> [@sailor](#): > > Why not both? Why not everybody from the rude TSA jerk all the way up the chain to the Idiot in Chief and then on to the American people who put him there and who continue to support such idiocy? There’s plenty of blame to go around. In singular incident in question the screener made no decision, she followed the instructions she had been given. I was speaking in specifics and not generalities, as you are doing. I’m sure much of this is as stupid to TSA screeners as it is to us, but they can’t just toss out the rules - if they did, they’d be replaced with people more willing to follow them. You do have the point that in order to change this we need to go to the policy _makers_, but would require us to stop venting our spleens at the screeners (who are oh so visible and available) and actually make an effort like writing to our elected representatives and voting for a higher quality candidate instead of straight party or basing our vote on who looks most like us or goes to a similar church. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-please-with-the-fucking-t-s-a/464671.md?page=8)