# Oh poor George (Cardinal Pell)...might have been easier to come home!
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315
**Category:** The BBQ Pit
**Created:** [February 17, 2016, 3:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315 "2016-02-17T03:42:16Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 25
### Author:  [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/481 "2020-04-07T02:15:03Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I was still wrong about my prediction, of course, that Pell would not be convicted. But now it appears that Pell’s conviction was not a result of a reasonable jury’s verdict. So, there’s that.
I’m so proud of you. Congrats.
---
### Author:  [@Larry\_Borgia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Larry_Borgia)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/482 "2020-04-07T02:20:17Z")
> [@Ike\_Witt](#):
>
> [Freed](https://edition.cnn.com/2020/04/06/australia/australia-cardinal-pell-high-court-hnk-intl/index.html) as high court overturns convictions.
Well, if his religious beliefs are true, there’s a higher judge waiting for him. (Spoiler alert: They aren’t and there isn’t.)
---
### Author:  [@madmonk28](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madmonk28)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/483 "2020-04-07T02:25:28Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> And yet another follow-up.
>
> [https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/australia/australia-cardinal-pell-high-court-hnk-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/australia/australia-cardinal-pell-high-court-hnk-intl/index.html)
>
> The High Court’s verdict ordering that Pell be acquitted cannot, as I understand Australian law, be further challenged.
>
> So ultimately, the final decision of the legal system is that the evidence was insufficient, as a matter of law, to establish Pell’s guilt.
>
> I was still wrong about my prediction, of course, that Pell would not be convicted. But now it appears that Pell’s conviction was not a result of a reasonable jury’s verdict. So, there’s that.
Pathetic.
---
### Author:  [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/484 "2020-04-07T02:52:24Z")
Goddammit.
Just hope the victim(s) can finally put their past to rest sometime soon. I can’t imagine how they must be feeling now.
---
### Author:  [@Guest-starring\_Id](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guest-starring_Id)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 4:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/485 "2020-04-07T04:13:40Z")
hmmm I guess that means _really_ no **Bricker** now, er I mean ‘almost certainly not returning full time’ or something.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 4:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/486 "2020-04-07T04:33:26Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> I was still wrong about my prediction, of course, that Pell would not be convicted. But now it appears that Pell’s conviction was not a result of a reasonable jury’s verdict. So, there’s that.
Pride in being technically sorta kinda right in a second hand way?
I expected no less from you.
---
### Author:  [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 6:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/487 "2020-04-07T06:45:16Z")
It’s been interesting reading back on this thread since its inception app 4 years ago.
I mean ‘interesting’ as a combination of astonishment and absolute disgust at the lengths bricker and Princhester contorted themselves to absolve the RCC of any culpability in its crimes against children.
I’d sort of forgotten what scumbags they were. I remember now though.
---
### Author:  [@GreenWyvern](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GreenWyvern)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/488 "2020-04-07T10:34:46Z")
I haven’t been following this case, so I won’t comment.
But here’s the [full text of the court judgment](http://www8.austlii.edu.au/cgi-bin/viewdoc/au/cases/cth/HCA/2020/12.html).
I’d be interested for people who know the case - particularly people with a legal background - to read through it and say what points they agree or don’t agree with.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 1:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/489 "2020-04-07T13:57:17Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Pride in being technically sorta kinda right in a second hand way?
> I expected no less from you.
My prediction was based on the belief that Pell was not guilty.
Specifically: he didn’t abuse anyone, and the acts he took with regard to priests that WERE guilty were not illegal.
This thread had several types of arguments going on. Among them:
[ol]
[li]Pell is guilty of sexual abuse in his own right[/li][li]Pell is guilty of crimes for shielding priests[/li][li]Pell might not be legally guilty, but his moral guilt makes it perfectly fine for him to suffer legal consequences[/li][/ol]
Which of these do you endorse?
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/490 "2020-04-07T14:06:01Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> My prediction was based on the belief that Pell was not guilty.
Your prediction was that he wouldn’t be convicted, and you don’t get to say _after the fact_ that a conviction doesn’t count because sometime in the future there is a possibility it might finally be overturned.
---
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/491 "2020-04-07T14:09:24Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> And yet another follow-up.
>
> [https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/australia/australia-cardinal-pell-high-court-hnk-intl/index.html](https://www.cnn.com/2020/04/06/australia/australia-cardinal-pell-high-court-hnk-intl/index.html)
>
> The High Court’s verdict ordering that Pell be acquitted cannot, as I understand Australian law, be further challenged.
>
> So ultimately, the final decision of the legal system is that the evidence was insufficient, as a matter of law, to establish Pell’s guilt.
>
> I was still wrong about my prediction, of course, that Pell would not be convicted. But now it appears that Pell’s conviction was not a result of a reasonable jury’s verdict. So, there’s that.
I believe the term “travesty” and “miscarriage” are in order. It was as perverse a conviction as I have ever seen.
---
### Author:  [@AK84](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AK84)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/492 "2020-04-07T14:10:42Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Your prediction was that he wouldn’t be convicted, and you don’t get to say _after the fact_ that a conviction doesn’t count because sometime in the future there is a possibility it might finally be overturned.
Conviction attains finality when it can no longer in the ordinary course be set aside by a competent Tribunal.
---
### Author:  [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/493 "2020-04-07T14:20:22Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> Your prediction was that he wouldn’t be convicted, and you don’t get to say _after the fact_ that a conviction doesn’t count because sometime in the future there is a possibility it might finally be overturned.
That’s not really true.
The point of legal systems in most Western democracies is that they contain mechanisms to undo error.
I might predict, confidently, that Representative Schiff can’t be convicted of treason for his role in the impeachment of Donald Trump.
The basis for that statement is **both** a confidence in the legal system not permitting such a grievous and unjustified error in the first place, and a confidence that if it did happen, the error would be quickly corrected by higher courts. That’s why we have higher courts.
I would have captured that sense better if I had predicted that Pell would never be fully and finally convicted, or used some other language to reach both tiers of the basis for my confidence. I didn’t, and I readily acknowledged that failure of my predictive prowess when it happened. I admit it again.
But at the same time, I don’t think it’s unfair to point out that there is now a final and unappealable judgement that the conviction was in error.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/494 "2020-04-07T14:57:46Z")
“I will eventually be vindicated somehow, someday, therefore I can never be proven wrong!”
What a fucking weasel.
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/495 "2020-04-07T15:05:43Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> “I will eventually be vindicated somehow, someday, therefore I can never be proven wrong!”
> What a fucking weasel.
> [@AK84](#):
>
> Conviction attains finality when it can no longer in the ordinary course be set aside by a competent Tribunal.
This.
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### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/496 "2020-04-07T15:09:06Z")
> [@madsircool](#):
>
> This.
“Convicted, then overturned” is NOT the same thing as “never convicted”.
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/497 "2020-04-07T15:19:57Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> “Convicted, then overturned” is NOT the same thing as “never convicted”.
It is if the conviction was wrongly obtained. A successful appeal is not the same thing as a pardon.
---
### Author:  [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/498 "2020-04-07T15:21:09Z")
> [@madsircool](#):
>
> It is if the conviction was wrongly obtained. A successful appeal is not the same thing as a pardon.
So we cannot say that a person is convicted until…when?
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### Author:  [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/499 "2020-04-07T15:28:41Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#):
>
> So we cannot say that a person is convicted until…when?
Until their appeals are exhausted. Pell WAS convicted, now he is not.
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### Author:  [@kayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kayaker)
#### Post date: [April 7, 2020, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-poor-george-cardinal-pell-might-have-been-easier-to-come-home/746315/500 "2020-04-07T15:29:10Z")
> [@Bricker](#):
>
> The point of legal systems in most Western democracies is that they contain mechanisms to undo error.
I’ll bet you think we should all do jury duty when asked, right? Why should jurors bother, when, in reality, their decision only stands if it is a decision that is correct on review? Why waste a juror’s time if someone smarter than them will be reviewing their work?
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