# Oh...shit. Turkey and the Kurds **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [May 25, 2007, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432 "2007-05-25T00:05:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 4:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/21 "2007-05-29T16:19:41Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] How is that a separate question?! [/QUOTE] Well, it’s separate in that being treated like shit is never a good excuse for going and killing innocent civilians. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [May 29, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/22 "2007-05-29T17:23:35Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Well, it’s separate in that being treated like shit is never a good excuse for going and killing innocent civilians. [/QUOTE] It’s not an **excuse,** but it’s definitely a **motive.** ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/23 "2007-06-06T16:10:27Z")
[It’s happening now.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19070463/) ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/24 "2007-06-06T16:17:35Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [It’s happening now.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19070463/) [/QUOTE] Relax: > [@](#): > > “It is not a major offensive and the number of troops is **not** in the tens of thousands,” one of the officials told the AP by telephone. The official is based in southeast Turkey, where the military has been battling separatist Kurdish rebels since they took up arms in 1984. -[**Not** in the Tens of Thousands](http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20070606/ap_on_re_mi_ea/turkey_iraq_6;_ylt=AjVnzDLLUJv5zLJvyhS85A4E1vAI) = nothing to worry about. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 6, 2007, 4:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/25 "2007-06-06T16:32:21Z")
We all pretty much knew something like this was likely, we were just sort of hoping it could be postponed for a while until things more or less calmed down. Question arises as to how committed the Iraqi Kurds are to their dreams of Greater Kurdistan. Such things are never universal, however popular. Some of the Kurdish people are clearly committed to such a scheme, and by any means necessary. I suspect that some goodly portion of the Kurdish people would prefer to leave well enough alone, at least for the time being. Consolidate their power, unify and legitimize their governance and demonstrate their independence. Problem is, of course, that however dominant the moderates may be, it only takes one radical to get the shit rolling. The perceptive reader may have the impression that I haven’t a clue as to what the US should do in order to avert crisis, other than to send diplomatic letters of concern and perform the public Wringing of Hands Ceremony. The perceptive reader will be entirely correct. ---
**Author:** ![11811](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/1/9d8465/32.png) [@11811](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/11811)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 12:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/26 "2007-06-07T00:58:12Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] The Turks crossing into Iraq would put the U.S. in a very difficult position. The Turks have been our allies for decades, but the Iraqi Kurds have been our best allies in Iraq up to now. And there’s no way we can avoid choosing sides. [/QUOTE] And if we combine that with Bush’s “I’m not my father” routine, perhaps the US will be unable to abandon them. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 5:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/27 "2007-06-07T05:37:24Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] [It’s happening now.](http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/19070463/) [/QUOTE] Ah. Saw that story on CNN this evening and the very first words that sprang to mind, oddly enough, were “Oh, shit.” My heart hopes for cooler heads to prevail; my gut says it’s headed for the fan. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 7, 2007, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/28 "2007-06-07T19:12:28Z")
Turkey [is offering a dialogue with the Iraqi Kurds if the latter will curb the PKK.](http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=070606140215.k720kujo.php) Will they? ---
**Author:** ![Lust4Life](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ecc23a/32.png) [@Lust4Life](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lust4Life)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 12:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/29 "2007-06-08T12:07:22Z")
The Kurds also committed a terrorist explosion in an Athens bank a while ago . Ironic really cos the Turks and the Greeks hate each others guts. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/30 "2007-06-08T13:22:05Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] Turkey [is offering a dialogue with the Iraqi Kurds if the latter will curb the PKK.](http://www.africasia.com/services/news/newsitem.php?area=mideast&item=070606140215.k720kujo.php) Will they? [/QUOTE] Can they? The Kurds are the only friends the USA have in Iraq. Kurdish troops are heavily involved in ‘the surge’. Good luck with mounting major military operations to root them out of the mountains without pissing the Kurds off. And sure as shit, the Govt of the Green Zone with its so-called ‘army’ that is unable to secure its own capital isn’t going to be of any help. Even if the army was not just sectarian militias in disguise. [Getting Out of Iraq: Why Training Security Forces May Not Work](http://www.americanchronicle.com/articles/viewArticle.asp?articleID=17950) > [@](#): > > The ISG covered the issue of national allegiance in its report: “Significant questions remain about the ethnic composition and loyalties of some Iraqi units—specifically whether they will carry out missions on behalf of national goals instead of a sectarian agenda.” The report goes on to say, “Of Iraq’s 10 planned divisions, those that are even-numbered are made up of Iraqis who signed up to serve in a specific area, and they have been reluctant to redeploy to other areas of the country. As a result, elements of the Army have refused to carry out missions.” > > The Iraqi Police suffer from the same problem, with sectarian loyalties manifesting themselves in the bribery, theft, torture and murder of the civilian population. Family ties, religious beliefs and tribal associations take precedence over protecting and serving the public at large, and many policemen use their positions to enhance their respective militias or factions instead of to enforce the laws passed by the Iraqi government. And the USA is allegedly playing the old good terrorist/bad terrorist game. You can’t stoke Kurdish nationalism against Iran and not at the same time stoke regarding Turkey and Kirkuk. This is tiger by the tail stuff. [USA arming sister organisation](http://www.guardian.co.uk/turkey/story/0,,2040626,00.html) > [@](#): > > Several other factors are adding to the tension between the Nato partners: > > The firm Turkish belief that the US is playing a double game in northern Iraq. Officials say the CIA is covertly funding and arming the PKK’s sister organisation, the Iran-based Kurdistan Free Life party, to destabilise the Iranian government. \ > [@](#): > > US support for Iranian Kurds opposed to the Tehran government is adding to the agitation. “The US is trying to undermine the Iran regime, using the Kurds like it is using the MEK [the anti-Tehran People’s Mujahideen],” said Dr Logoglu. “Once you begin to differentiate between ‘good’ and ‘bad’ terrorist organisations, then you lose the war on terror.” From the rabidly right-wing Telegraph. [US Funding Terror groups in Iran](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2007/02/25/wiran25.xml) > [@](#): > > America is secretly funding militant ethnic separatist groups in Iran in an attempt to pile pressure on the Islamic regime to give up its nuclear programme. > > In a move that reflects Washington’s growing concern with the failure of diplomatic initiatives, CIA officials are understood to be helping opposition militias among the numerous ethnic minority groups clustered in Iran’s border regions. > > The operations are controversial because they involve dealing with movements that resort to terrorist methods in pursuit of their grievances against the Iranian regime. > > \ > > Funding for their separatist causes comes directly from the CIA’s classified budget but is now “no great secret”, according to one former high-ranking CIA official in Washington who spoke anonymously to The Sunday Telegraph. > > His claims were backed by Fred Burton, a former US state department counter-terrorism agent, who said: “The latest attacks inside Iran fall in line with US efforts to supply and train Iran’s ethnic minorities to destabilise the Iranian regime.” > > \ > > Such a policy is fraught with risk, however. Many of the groups share little common cause with Washington other than their opposition to President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad, whose regime they accuse of stepping up repression of minority rights and culture. > > The Baluchistan-based Brigade of God group, which last year kidnapped and killed eight Iranian soldiers, is a volatile Sunni organisation that many fear could easily turn against Washington after taking its money. > > A row has also broken out in Washington over whether to “unleash” the military wing of the Mujahedeen-e Khalq (MEK), an Iraq-based Iranian opposition group with a long and bloody history of armed opposition to the Iranian regime. > > The group is currently listed by the US state department as terrorist organisation, but Mr Pike said: “A faction in the Defence Department wants to unleash them. They could never overthrow the current Iranian regime but they might cause a lot of damage.” Funding Islamic terrorists. What could possibly go wrong? :rolleyes: This is predictable blowback from the whole insane idea. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/31 "2007-06-08T13:27:04Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Can they? The Kurds are the only friends the USA have in Iraq. Kurdish troops are heavily involved in ‘the surge’. Good luck with mounting major military operations to root them out of the mountains without pissing the Kurds off. And sure as shit, the Govt of the Green Zone with its so-called ‘army’ that is unable to secure its own capital isn’t going to be of any help. [/QUOTE] No, not them. The way I read the story, Turkey wants the **Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga** (now officially in charge of security and defense for the region) to rein in the PKK. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/32 "2007-06-08T13:37:22Z")
[QUOTE=BrainGlutton] No, not them. The way I read the story, Turkey wants the **Iraqi Kurdish Peshmerga** (now officially in charge of security and defense for the region) to rein in the PKK. [/QUOTE] Like that is going to happen. We might call the PKK terrorists but I’ll lay any odds that is not what the Kurds think. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 1:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/33 "2007-06-08T13:40:53Z")
[QUOTE=tagos] Like that is going to happen. We might call the PKK terrorists but I’ll lay any odds that is not what the Kurds think. [/QUOTE] [Pershamaga reinforces border](http://jamestown.org/terrorism/news/article.php?articleid=2373344) > [@](#): > > Last week, Turkey’s general staff held an unprecedented press conference to announce that it was recommending direct strikes on Kurdistan Workers’ Party (PKK) bases in Iraq’s Kurdish areas and establishing a buffer zone along the border with a heavy military presence. Frustrated by the Kurdistan Regional Government’s (KRG) intransigence and unwillingness to “do more” to expel the PKK presence from northern Iraq, Turkish officials have made additional assertive remarks in recent days, accusing Iraqi Kurds of directly supporting terrorists (Terrorism Focus, April 17). KRG President Massoud Barzani responded in kind, stating that Iraqi Kurds would interfere in the Kurdish regions of Turkey if the Turkish military carried out any operations in Iraqi territory. Thus far, it has only been a war of words, but there have been disparate reports regarding Iraqi Kurdish military actions in response to the Turkish announcement. > > Al-Sharq al-Awsat reported that the Kurdistan government is deploying military reinforcements and weaponry along its border with Turkey in preparation for any Turkish incursion. Although the Kurdistan Democratic Party (KDP), also headed by Barzani, denied reports of reinforcements, witnesses on the ground have reported that many peshmerga units have withdrawn from Mosul and redeployed along the border (al-Sharq al-Awsat, April 15). Other reports have indicated that the reinforcements include 50 “dushkas,” which are heavy anti-aircraft machine guns, and armored vehicles (Hawlati, April 16). ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 8, 2007, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/34 "2007-06-08T23:50:12Z")
We could bribe the Turks, I suppose. We could offer to throw our whole diplomatic weight behind their entry in the EU. ---
**Author:** ![elucidator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/8edcca/32.png) [@elucidator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/elucidator)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/35 "2007-06-09T00:04:55Z")
And I want to take a moment to commend fellow Dopers who restrained themselves from any “band name” reference. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 12:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/36 "2007-06-09T00:07:26Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] And I want to take a moment to commend fellow Dopers who restrained themselves from any “band name” reference. [/QUOTE] Actually, I’ve been hearing the title sung to the tune of “Skip To My Lou” for about two weeks now… Really, no need to thank me. Honest. Just another service I provide… ---
**Author:** ![kellner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/c2a13f/32.png) [@kellner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kellner)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 1:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/37 "2007-06-09T01:25:59Z")
[QUOTE=elucidator] We could bribe the Turks, I suppose. We could offer to throw our whole diplomatic weight behind their entry in the EU. [/QUOTE] Do you know that the US attempts to push Turkey into the EU are already met with suspicion? I can’t imagine how incresing these efforts could be anything but counterproductive. Perhaps the US can put so much pressure _on Turkey_ that they solve a few of their more severe problems and become a viable candidate again but that’s hard to use as a bargaining chip when dealing with them. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [June 9, 2007, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432/38 "2007-06-09T01:38:36Z")
BTW, does anybody know what the PKK’s politics are these days (apart from Kurdish nationalism)? They were some kind of Communists to start with, their name in English means “Kurdish Workers’ Party,” but I don’t know what they believe now. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-shit-turkey-and-the-kurds/405432.md?page=1)