# Oh silly, of course they didn't mean it that way! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385 "2005-12-28T01:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 13
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/241 "2006-01-02T03:54:44Z")
Well, now, **Guin** , you have to bear in mind that **updike** is probably only judging based on his on emotional and mental fortitude when he was 12 years old. I bet he even killed him a b’ar when he was only three. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 3:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/242 "2006-01-02T03:59:56Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > He was a CHILD, coerced into virtual slavery. There’s no evidence of that, but if you say so, my dear. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/243 "2006-01-02T04:19:12Z")
Now hear this! From this point on all personal anecdotes, life stories and real-life examples are hereby stricken from being admissible evidence on the Straight Dope Message Board because of the impossibility of conclusively proving their veracity. You are now enjoined to view your fellow Dopers with extreme mistrust and suspicion because of the chance they could be misrepresenting themselves and/or any given situation. Dipwad. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/244 "2006-01-02T04:51:37Z")
> [@Inner Stickler](#): > > From this point on all personal anecdotes, life stories and real-life examples are hereby stricken from being admissible evidence on the Straight Dope Message Board because of the impossibility of conclusively proving their veracity. Oh, darn. I guess that means I can’t share my personal anecdote, life story, and real-life example of being abducted by Martians. Bummer. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/245 "2006-01-02T04:56:45Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Oh, darn. I guess that means I can’t share my personal anecdote, life story, and real-life example of being abducted by Martians. Bummer. It _would_ explain a hell of a lot… ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 4:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/246 "2006-01-02T04:59:03Z")
Not that I want to step into this, but ok: **Updike** , anecdote in question aside, do you think that a person that enters into an adult’s service/sphere of control as a child and whose access to information is thereafter controled by that person, and who is told by that person that they have no legal right to or recourse if they leave that person, do you think such a person can be said to have an element of “choice” in any meaningful sense? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/247 "2006-01-02T05:03:28Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It _would_ explain a hell of a lot… OK, that was really funny, good one. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/248 "2006-01-02T05:11:29Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > This is just a bright idea, and not pre-approved or sponsored by SDMB, but would it be possible for members to contribute towards getting **Eva Luna** , who is a paralegal at a group dealing with assisting people in difficulties through immigration problems and who has helped out before in similar circumstances, the resources to come to the aid of **Rushgeekhusband**? I’ll see what I can do, but for the record, I’m working in-house these days for a large corporation preparing/providing advice regarding work visas and immigration compliance, mostly regarding degreed professional employees, and before that I worked for a law firm which did the same, so I don’t often deal with situations like this one. (Sorry I didn’t see this before, but hey, I haven’t been around much lately, and frankly, these kinds of threads give me a headache due to the vast amounts of misinformation and ignorance being flung around. Not to mention the lack of compassion for fellow human beings born and/or raised in less fortunate circumstances than most of us. Can all of you who are criticizing the OP and her husband honestly say that if you were in similar circumstances, you would do anything differently? This thread is just chock-full of glass houses. Even if you disagree with their actions, for chrissakes, can’t you do so respectfully?) I may be able to provide some pointers, though - but yes, getting official documentation of pretty much anyything from southern Mexico is going to be a bitch, not to mention extremely slow, and yes, state agencies are getting more and more restrictive in what services they provide people who don’t have Social Security numbers, etc. And the category of people who cannot legally obtain Social Security numbers includes quite a number of people here legally, for that matter - dependents of people legally present in the U.S. on work visas, exchange visitor visas, etc. can’t get them either. It’s a huge PITA. In the meantime, here is a list of resources for [organizations providing free or low-cost immigration assistance;](http://www.usdoj.gov/eoir/probono/states.htm) they don’t have the resources to take every case, but I hope they can at least provide some guidance at jumping through the more mundane bureaucratic hoops. Eva Luna, Immigration Paralegal ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/249 "2006-01-02T05:16:26Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > anecdote in question aside, do you think that a person that enters into an adult’s service/sphere of control as a child and whose access to information is thereafter controled by that person, and who is told by that person that they have no legal right to or recourse if they leave that person, do you think such a person can be said to have an element of “choice” in any meaningful sense? Yes, I do. Unless we’re discussing respiration or having a heartbeat, I believe that individuals have a choice in _everything_ we do. In fact, our choices are what define us, and make us human. To say that anyone “didn’t have a choice” is untrue. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/250 "2006-01-02T05:18:04Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > There’s no evidence of that, but if you say so, my dear. No, we merely have his wife’s word, and God knows that anyone who would marry an illegal immigrant who schemed his way into working in a sweatshop as an illegal immigrant, knowing full well that he could pick up and leave, because he was obviously born with the _a priori_ knowledge of his rights under U.S. immigration law, clearly would never tell us the truth as she knows it. What we **do** have evidence of is that you are an unmitigated asshole who thinks nothing of defaming others and making snide remarks at and about them, without the slightest hint of human compassion or charity. And compared to what I really want to say, that’s a _compliment_. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/251 "2006-01-02T05:27:35Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Yes, I do. Unless we’re discussing respiration or having a heartbeat, I believe that individuals have a choice in _everything_ we do. In fact, our choices are what define us, and make us human. To say that anyone “didn’t have a choice” is untrue. We are talking about whether or no someone has a choice to break the law. If you credibly believe (because your access to information has been closely controlled) that you are legally obligated to stay where you are, I don’t think you can be said to have broken the law by choice. ---
**Author:** ![Eva\_Luna](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e495f1/32.png) [@Eva\_Luna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eva_Luna)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/252 "2006-01-02T05:29:21Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > It’s not? Slavery has been outlawed for what, 140 years now? To say in 2005 that someone has been a slave is an extraordinary claim, and thus requires evidence. Not as extraordinary as you might think, unfortunately. In fact, [there is an entire visa category for victims of human trafficking.](http://uscis.gov/graphics/publicaffairs/factsheets/tvisa.htm) It was created as part of the [Victims of Trafficking and Violence Protection Act of 2000.](http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/PL106_386.pdf) (warning: .pdf file). You might be interested in the [2005 Trafficking in Persons Report,](http://www.state.gov/g/tip/rls/tiprpt/2005/46606.htm) produced by the State Department; apparently 600,000 - 800,000 people worldwide are trafficked across international borders every year, primarily women and children, and that “The International Labor Organization (ILO) — the United Nations (UN) agency charged with addressing labor standards, employment, and social protection issues — estimates that there are 12.3 million people enslaved in forced labor, bonded labor, forced child labor, sexual servitude, and involuntary servitude at any given time.” Cheerful, huh? Gives you a whole new perspective on how great your own childhood may have been in comparison, I hope? ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/253 "2006-01-02T05:30:41Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > No, we merely have his wife’s word, and God knows that anyone who would marry an illegal immigrant who schemed his way into working in a sweatshop as an illegal immigrant, knowing full well that he could pick up and leave, because he was obviously born with the _a priori_ knowledge of his rights under U.S. immigration law, clearly would never tell us the truth as she knows it. Wow, this story gets better all the time. Now you have the poor man working in a sweatshop! What’s next, his Master is harvesting his organs, as well? :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/254 "2006-01-02T05:33:41Z")
Want a backhoe for that hole you’re digging? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/255 "2006-01-02T05:34:30Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > …harvesting his organs, as well?.. We could try harvesting some from you… but your missing soo many, brain, heart, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/256 "2006-01-02T05:35:22Z")
> [@Manda JO](#): > > We are talking about whether or no someone has a choice to break the law. If you credibly believe (because your access to information has been closely controlled) that you are legally obligated to stay where you are, I don’t think you can be said to have broken the law by choice. As I said, everything one does, short of breathing, is a choice. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/257 "2006-01-02T05:38:09Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > As I said, everything one does, short of breathing, is a choice. Lemme get this straight-if I’m raped, or robbed, that’s because I CHOSE to be raped, or chose to have someone rob me? ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/258 "2006-01-02T05:42:17Z")
What about brute force? I’m pretty sure a strong man could pick up a small woman or child and take them where he wills regardless of their feelings on the matter. As far as choices go, what if you are , just for the sake of the argument, TWELVE YEARS OLD and don’t understand what your rights are as far as humane treatment goes? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Carrot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f0a364/32.png) [@Captain\_Carrot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Carrot)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/259 "2006-01-02T05:47:10Z")
> [@Inner Stickler](#): > > What about brute force? I’m pretty sure a strong man could pick up a small woman or child and take them where he wills regardless of their feelings on the matter. Oh no, you could _choose_ to become super-strong and escape his clutches. You always have a choice, and sometimes it’s the choice to do something incredible! (For the sarcasm-impaired, I’m ridiculing **Updike** and his position, not that they need any help.) ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [January 2, 2006, 5:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/260 "2006-01-02T05:48:58Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Lemme get this straight-if I’m raped, or robbed, that’s because I CHOSE to be raped, or chose to have someone rob me? No, of course not. Chosing to remain in another country illegally is a different thing, though. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=12) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=14)