# Oh silly, of course they didn't mean it that way! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385 "2005-12-28T01:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 28, 2005, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/101 "2005-12-28T23:54:18Z")
> [@kaylasdad99](#): > > Nitpick: he’s _applied for_ a green card (and I hope he gets it). I’m bringing this up now so **Updike** (who is, as **DtC** points out, a scumbag [IMHO, YMMV] 😛 ) can’t come roaring in here and claim to have caught you out in something, you criminal-defending, lookin’-the-other-way America hater. I live in the SF Bay Area. It’s a requirement. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/102 "2005-12-29T00:01:57Z")
> [@saoirse](#): > > Sorry to jump tracks in this thread, but I though I should point out: > > Sure there is. Every time an illegal alien buys something, the state and county charge them a small (3-9%) levy. Everyone else pays it, too. For most people in the bottom quintile, this is the largest tax they pay. Right you are, of course. I was talking about state/fed income and social security, but your point is taken and correct. ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/103 "2005-12-29T00:04:04Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Right you are, of course. I was talking about state/fed income and social security, but your point is taken and correct. You are likely wrong there too. An illegal working with false documents is having taxes withheld which will never be seen again. Pure profit! ---
**Author:** ![kaylasdad99](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kaylasdad99/32/3398_2.png) [@kaylasdad99](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kaylasdad99)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/104 "2005-12-29T00:11:23Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Is **updike** bright enough to have caught that inconsistency? Probably not, but there’s always the old saw about the blind pig and the truffles. And as he’s not above piggybacking on somebody else pointing it out, I thought I’d preemptively fence it off. ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/105 "2005-12-29T00:35:25Z")
It’s unfortunate that **Liberal** absents himself from these sorts of threads. Because he would be the perfect person to make the point that **Updike** himself is of course descended from illegal aliens, as are we all (Americans and Canadians, that is) with a handful of exceptions. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 12:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/106 "2005-12-29T00:48:57Z")
> [@Biggirl](#): > > You have not seen any such shit. The Long Island Sound was out-fished by good ole USA fishermen long before such limits where imposed. It was commercial fishing that fucked Long Island. The sound perhaps but the bays/channels of the south shore were devistated by recreational fishing. > [@](#): > > Now that Long Island is well and truly fucked, limits have been set on recreational fishermen-- and guess who breaks those rules more-- illegal immigrants or your average CEO who takes his buddies out on his baby? Big time CEO’s are not going to go after a 10 in fluke, so the answer is illegal immigrants > [@](#): > > Do you know what the illegal immigrants do on Long Island? Build houses they can never afford to live in because they make $100 a week, watch “legal” children and clean big, fancy houses. THIS I’ve seen with my very own eyes $100/week, get real. These are very hard working people and demand (yes DEMAND) a certain rate no where near this $100/week. And I have seen this with my very own eyes. ---
**Author:** ![Caffeine.addict](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/f475e1/32.png) [@Caffeine.addict](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caffeine.addict)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/107 "2005-12-29T01:46:31Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > $100/week, get real. These are very hard working people and demand (yes DEMAND) a certain rate no where near this $100/week. And I have seen this with my very own eyes. Yeah, I know a few, and I don’t think that what they are getting is anywhere this low. The average cleaning lady around here will charge approximately $100.00 to clean a townhouse. The average illegal who is working at a day site should be making approximately $11.00 an hour if not more. Mind you with the latter figure, there exists the very likely scenario that his employer will rip him off. ---
**Author:** ![Biggirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/biggirl/32/3294_2.png) [@Biggirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Biggirl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/108 "2005-12-29T01:49:33Z")
> [@kanicbird](#): > > Big time CEO’s are not going to go after a 10 in fluke, so the answer is illegal immigrants Big time CEOs? I don’t know what big time CEOs fish. My co-worker is not a big time CEO. The bays and cays lost fish because the oceans lost fish. And what that has to do with illegal alien recreational fishing overfishing vs American Citizen recreational overfishing, I do not know. I also know what the pay for some of the immigrants on Long Island is. I say some make as little 100/per week. Since I’ve said it twice and you’ve only said it once, that means I win, right? **John** Nope, you are right. You never said “take”. Sorry. So, what about **BJ’s** point that you seem to think I’ve misread. I did not misread it, unless you have misread it also. I do not think an average CEO contributes more to society than an average poor person. I would like to know how you and **BJ** have reached this conclusion. Unless, of course, you’re now going to say you never said or implied this either. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/109 "2005-12-29T01:52:14Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > An excuse to remain in this country? Huh? He’s a liar, a cheat, and a criminal. What about all those thousands of people who legally apply for immigration, and get denied? > > It’s great that he is a good father to your child, but your attitude about the whole thing seems awfully selfish. IMHO, YMMV. Yep we’re horribly selfish. ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 2:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/110 "2005-12-29T02:00:52Z")
> [@SteveG1](#): > > Isn’t there something that can be done? Here in California (and most states??) there are counselors and advisors whose purpose is to help people become citizens. I take it from your post that he’s been here a long time. Surely he can fill out the needed forms, take whatever citizenship training is needed, and knows enough people to get a sponsor if needed. There has to be a legal way to stay, and make it both permanent and official. There have also been various “amnesty” programs for people to do this. There is now that he has a daughter that is a citizen but the problem we’ve had is that he had no papers at all. We just recently got his birth certificate…it’s not like in the U.S. where one can just run across town and order a copy. He also has to get a new, valid matricula but that’s not any easier. They told us here when they came that he’d have to go back to Tallahassee to reapply. We’re working on it. Slowly but surely. It would have been done a long time ago if he had known he was still considered illegal. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 2:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/111 "2005-12-29T02:08:01Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > There is now that he has a daughter that is a citizen but the problem we’ve had is that he had no papers at all. We just recently got his birth certificate…it’s not like in the U.S. where one can just run across town and order a copy. He also has to get a new, valid matricula but that’s not any easier. They told us here when they came that he’d have to go back to Tallahassee to reapply. We’re working on it. Slowly but surely. It would have been done a long time ago if he had known he was still considered illegal. Hey, I live in Tallahassee, if it’s a matter of getting some paperwork from an office here, I can try to do it for you if you’ll let me know what you need. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/112 "2005-12-29T03:13:03Z")
> [@dangermom](#): > > I didn’t say it, but I will say that the comparison to slavery may be because we here in the USA, by tolerating this illegal immigration thingy, have got ourselves a nice little underclass. An underclass that will do jobs we won’t do for so little money, because we aren’t desperate enough. Lovely, ain’t it? Perhaps it’s better compared to sharecropping, but it isn’t pretty either way. > > Personally, I would rather see immigration enforcement tightened up, properly administered, and immigration itself opened up. Then perhaps the workers could earn a decent wage legally instead of almost nothing illegally. Yes, we would have to pay more for produce, but I’d rather have pricier lettuce than a permanent underclass in my society. Plenty of American citizens will do the labor if they can earn something resembling an actual wage from it–the argument that “they’re doing jobs we won’t do anyway” only holds as long as the wages are so criminally low. Actually, this is a pretty good argument for leaving the Constitution as it is: taking away the citizenship from the children of illegals doesn’t take away the child: that kid is still going to be here in this country, only now he’s in the same trap as his parents. Illegal immigration creates the underclass: the 14th ammendment presents a way out of it. Without it, these people are going to be a permanent underclass. There’s also the very real possibility that these people could find themselves without a country. If a couple come here illegally from Colombia and have a kid, what if Colombia decides not to recognize that kid’s citizenship? Where do we put that kid if his purported homeland won’t take him? Is there any sort of international law governing citizenship? ---
**Author:** ![waterj2](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/858c86/32.png) [@waterj2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/waterj2)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/113 "2005-12-29T03:29:53Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > Is **updike** bright enough to have caught that inconsistency? **Updike** not bright? Far from it. I’ve even heard that some guy died from an overabundance of **Updike** ’s brightness. No cite for that though. ---
**Author:** ![EddyTeddyFreddy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eddyteddyfreddy/32/18796_2.png) [@EddyTeddyFreddy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/EddyTeddyFreddy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 3:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/114 "2005-12-29T03:47:28Z")
> [@waterj2](#): > > **Updike** not bright? Far from it. I’ve even heard that some guy died from an overabundance of **Updike** ’s brightness. No cite for that though. Thank you for shedding light on that point. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/115 "2005-12-29T04:05:48Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Actually, this is a pretty good argument for leaving the Constitution as it is: taking away the citizenship from the children of illegals doesn’t take away the child: that kid is still going to be here in this country, only now he’s in the same trap as his parents. Illegal immigration creates the underclass: the 14th ammendment presents a way out of it. Without it, these people are going to be a permanent underclass. > > There’s also the very real possibility that these people could find themselves without a country. If a couple come here illegally from Colombia and have a kid, what if Colombia decides not to recognize that kid’s citizenship? Where do we put that kid if his purported homeland won’t take him? Is there any sort of international law governing citizenship? Someone correct me if I’m wrong (I know you all will), but wasn’t something very close to this the underlying reason for all those riots in France this year? ---
**Author:** ![Cardinal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cardinal/32/4000_2.png) [@Cardinal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cardinal)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/116 "2005-12-29T05:02:17Z")
I almost always avoid categorical statements, but to everything I can think of, the idea that kids born here only because their parents broke the law to be here at all is flatly ridiculous. It’s racial inequality guilt that keeps it going. If it were another subject that didn’t get me accused of being a racist, there’d be almost no discussion about changing it. It would just happen. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/117 "2005-12-29T05:15:31Z")
Lighter note: I just saw this clip on Comedy Central, it reminded me of this thread. Thought I’d share. Not Safe For Work! [http://www.onedawg.com/2005/10/06/mind-of-mencia-wetback-english/](http://www.onedawg.com/2005/10/06/mind-of-mencia-wetback-english/) ---
**Author:** ![flickster](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/7bcc69/32.png) [@flickster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flickster)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/118 "2005-12-29T06:03:04Z")
Well, so far the only cite I have seen in relation to the impact illegals are having on the health care industry has been the one from the mother-in-law. A quick google search turned up many others, but I kept away from the sites with obvious interest (either way). [This site](http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/health.html) may offer some neutral analysis. ---
**Author:** ![buttonjockey308](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/bcef8e/32.png) [@buttonjockey308](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/buttonjockey308)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/119 "2005-12-29T14:56:55Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > You are likely wrong there too. An illegal working with false documents is having taxes withheld which will never be seen again. Pure profit! Well, **Frank** if an illegal immigrant is working with false documents, then he or she is actually putting IN to the system, and if he/she requires services, then there is balance. The focus of my reply to **saoirse** was my statement that people who are paid without ANY documentation (which is the majority, IME) are paying no taxes, which is incorrect, they’re just not paying payroll taxes. ---
**Author:** ![grayhairedmomma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/47e85d/32.png) [@grayhairedmomma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/grayhairedmomma)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/120 "2005-12-29T16:12:07Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Well, **Frank** if an illegal immigrant is working with false documents, then he or she is actually putting IN to the system, and if he/she requires services, then there is balance. The focus of my reply to **saoirse** was my statement that people who are paid without ANY documentation (which is the majority, IME) are paying no taxes, which is incorrect, they’re just not paying payroll taxes. I think what **Frank** meant is that the employer will withold taxes from the paycheck but never pay them to the government - resulting in “pure profit” for the employer. He/she could get away with it because the illegals have no recourse and as far as the gov’t knows they don’t exist so the gov’t wouldn’t be looking for tax money from them. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=7)