# Oh silly, of course they didn't mean it that way! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 28, 2005, 1:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385 "2005-12-28T01:32:42Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/121 "2005-12-29T16:34:03Z")
> [@flickster](#): > > Well, so far the only cite I have seen in relation to the impact illegals are having on the health care industry has been the one from the mother-in-law. A quick google search turned up many others, but I kept away from the sites with obvious interest (either way). > > [This site](http://usinfo.state.gov/eap/east_asia_pacific/chinese_human_smuggling/smuggling_in_the_press/health.html) may offer some neutral analysis. Interesting stuff. This part in particular caught my eye: > [@](#): > > In a new program created under the 2003 Medicare law, **the U.S. federal government is offering $1 billion to U.S. hospitals that provide emergency care for illegal immigrants. But to collect the money, the hospitals will be required to provide documentation about their patients’ immigration status. > U.S. federal health officials maintain that the information is necessary to make sure the money will be used as Congress intended; that is, for "emergency health services furnished to undocumented aliens."** > Some hospital officials are balking at the requirement. They say collecting the information will be difficult, administratively expensive, and may pose a public health problem if the requirements scare off illegals needing care. For example, the foreign-born population accounted for over 50 percent of the new tuberculosis cases reported in 2003, according to the U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention. While I’m sure it’s necessary to make sure where the money is going, it also seems like the INS wants hospitals’ help tracking down illegals. The recent spike in TB cases is more than a little scary. ---
**Author:** ![missbunny](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/76d3ee/32.png) [@missbunny](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/missbunny)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/122 "2005-12-29T16:38:04Z")
> [@Lisa Ann](#): > > I’ve seen hospitals close because of illegals using their emergency rooms as free clinics. My mother-in-law works in the medical industry overseeing coding medical records for hospitals in the area I’m from and the majority of non-paying/non-insured persons were immigrants. > [@Lisa Ann](#): > > I explained in a previous post that my mother-in-law works in medical hospital coding. I don’t have the hospital’s private records. I know it’s a fact and I don’t give a shit if I can’t link to it. Do hospital records, and especially the portion that a medical coder would have access to, describe someone’s citizenship status? I have my own medical records and I don’t believe this is mentioned. Oh, it does state my place of birth - which happens to be a foreign country - but then I would appear to be a “foreigner” although I was born a U.S. citizen. I would think the reverse would thus show children of illegals to be “American.” Is it that you don’t have the “hospital’s private records” but your MIL does? Could you give us the names of the hospitals that closed down due to illegal immigrants fraudulently obtaining ER services? That is, not hospitals that merely closed, but rather hospitals that closed for the reason you said they closed. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/123 "2005-12-29T16:50:08Z")
> [@Cardinal](#): > > I almost always avoid categorical statements, but to everything I can think of, the idea that kids born here only because their parents broke the law to be here at all is flatly ridiculous. It’s racial inequality guilt that keeps it going. If it were another subject that didn’t get me accused of being a racist, there’d be almost no discussion about changing it. It would just happen. This is a good point. I, for one, only want children of illegal Mexican immigrants to get citizenship. The children of illegal Canadian immigrants can go fuck themselves. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Syntropy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/65b543/32.png) [@Syntropy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Syntropy)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/124 "2005-12-29T16:52:39Z")
> [@missbunny](#): > > Do hospital records, and especially the portion that a medical coder would have access to, describe someone’s citizenship status? No. That’s why the hospitals are balking; it’s already expensive to run a hospital, that would be one more administrative cost. First they’d have to get the patiet to admit to being in the country illegally, then they’d have to get them to sign something to that effect, then they’d have to try to get correct contact information. I can’t even imagine how they’d go about doing it, much less how they’d get the patient to actually stay for treatment once they’ve admitted to being in the country illegally. ---
**Author:** ![SteveG1](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/bb73d2/32.png) [@SteveG1](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SteveG1)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/125 "2005-12-29T17:46:13Z")
I don’t know if it’s been covered, but something bothers me. Let’s say someone is born in the USA to “Illegal” parents. He or she grows up to be an asset… the whole thing - good education, good work skills in a valuable field, Medal of Honor recipient, a respected member of the community, all of that. What would happen then, if he or she is suddenly “discovered” to be the child of illegals? Will the government shut down his/her business, cancel their college degrees, arrest them, and deport them? Deport them to where? Exactly what will the government do? At what age does the “spawn of illegals” get tossed out, and on what grounds? Will there be an age limit? A set financial level that allows him/her to stay? The whole idea sounds like a very bad one. ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/126 "2005-12-29T18:06:35Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > What’s more, illegal immigrats will never have the opportunity, because they haven’t a mechanism for paying taxes INTO the system. I don’t know what you do for a living, but you should probably be fired, because you apparently don’t know what the fuck you’re talking about. [To wit](http://deseretnews.com/dn/view/0,1249,600123790,00.html): > [@](#): > > As the debate over Social Security heats up, the estimated 7 million or so illegal immigrant workers in the United States are now providing the system with a subsidy of as much as $7 billion a year. > While it has been evident for years that illegal immigrants pay a variety of taxes, the extent of their contributions to Social Security is striking: The money added up to about 10 percent of last year’s surplus — the difference between what the system currently receives in payroll taxes and what it doles out in pension benefits. > … > Social Security officials do not know what fraction of the suspense file corresponds to the earnings of illegal immigrants. But they suspect that the portion is significant. > “Our assumption is that about three-quarters of other-than-legal immigrants pay payroll taxes,” said Stephen C. Goss, Social Security’s chief actuary. ---
**Author:** ![Zebra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/c0e974/32.png) [@Zebra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zebra)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/127 "2005-12-29T18:09:21Z")
**rushgeekgirl** Thank you for sharing your story. It illustrates perfectly how complex these situations really are as opposed to “they come and take jobs” or “they destroy our health care system by abusing the emergency room”. There are many people who complain that judges should not legislate from the bench. I just wish that the legislature would not judge from the state house. BTW, since he married an American citizen, doesn’t that make him one? ---
**Author:** ![black\_rabbit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/f19dbf/32.png) [@black\_rabbit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/black_rabbit)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/128 "2005-12-29T18:12:14Z")
Somehow, I missed that this thread is on the third page. > [@buttonjockey308](#): > > Well, **Frank** if an illegal immigrant is working with false documents, then he or she is actually putting IN to the system, and if he/she requires services, then there is balance. The focus of my reply to **saoirse** was my statement that people who are paid without ANY documentation (which is the majority, IME) are paying no taxes, which is incorrect, they’re just not paying payroll taxes. Anyway, according to the cite I just posted: > [@](#): > > It is impossible to know exactly how many illegal immigrant workers pay taxes. But according to specialists, most of them do. Since 1986, when the Immigration Reform and Control Act set penalties for employers who knowingly hire illegal immigrants, most immigrants have been forced to buy fake IDs to get jobs. > Available for about $150 on street corners in just about any immigrant neighborhood in California, a typical fake ID package includes a green card and a Social Security card. It provides cover for employers, who, if asked, can plausibly assert that they believe all their workers are legal. But it also means that workers must be paid by the book — payroll tax deductions and all. You’re still wrong. ---
**Author:** ![CynicalGabe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/3e96dc/32.png) [@CynicalGabe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CynicalGabe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/129 "2005-12-29T18:39:39Z")
> [@buttonjockey308](#): > > What’s more, illegal immigrats will never have the opportunity, because they haven’t a mechanism for paying taxes INTO the system. This is utter bullshit. Illegals pay a shitload of money into the system. Even many legal immigrants pay a lot of money in payroll taxes and are not eligible for social security, etc. ---
**Author:** ![jayjay](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jayjay/32/6765_2.png) [@jayjay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jayjay)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/130 "2005-12-29T20:12:12Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > BTW, since he married an American citizen, doesn’t that make him one? It’s not automatic. You still have to fill out the paperwork and hope you have a really, really nice INS representative working your case. The marriage to a US citizen only provides the validation of your reason for applying. There are any number of dopers who could provide you with the full story, though, since I’ve never been through the process myself. Paging **gingerofthenorth** and **Spiny Norman** , and/or their respective spouses, **Weirddave** and **Shayna** … ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/131 "2005-12-29T20:58:48Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > Paging **gingerofthenorth** and **Spiny Norman** , and/or their respective spouses, **Weirddave** and **Shayna** … I first read that as saying that \*\*Weirddave \*\*and \*\*Shayna \*\*were married. Now, that would be weird!! ---
**Author:** ![Bricker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/977dab/32.png) [@Bricker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bricker)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/132 "2005-12-29T21:18:32Z")
> [@jayjay](#): > > It’s not automatic. You still have to fill out the paperwork and hope you have a really, really nice INS representative working your case. The marriage to a US citizen only provides the validation of your reason for applying. There are any number of dopers who could provide you with the full story, though, since I’ve never been through the process myself. > > Paging **gingerofthenorth** and **Spiny Norman** , and/or their respective spouses, **Weirddave** and **Shayna** … It’s reasonably automatic. If you’re married to a US citizen, and you entered the country legally, then you are, by law, entitled to permanant residency. The marriage must last longer than two years; if you’ve been married less than two years, the residency is conditional. Filing the I-485 Form (from the immigrant) and the I-130 form (from the citizen) causes the issuance of an A-number and a “pending” status. The USCIS (formerly INS) then cranks along in its slow, slow fashion. But the nice thing is you don’t need to do anything else. It took two years to get Mrs. Bricker’s green card (now no longer green, I might add). But while her application was still pending, she was legally entitled to stay, and even work (following the approval of her Form I-765). About the only thing that can derail the process is the USCIS determining that the marriage is not legitimate. Since we arrived for our interview with wedding pics, proof of joint financial accounts, and our then two-year-old son, we had little problem in this area. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 10:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/133 "2005-12-29T22:00:04Z")
> [@Bricker](#): > > About the only thing that can derail the process is the USCIS determining that the marriage is not legitimate. Anecdote warning! The following is strictly an anecdote, I have no cite, so don’t ask for one (this is not aimed at Bricker, it’s for everyone). It is my understanding through discussion with our internal HR rep in charge of immigration issues that the process is nowhere near as smooth when the US Citizen in question is the woman and the furriner is the man. INS seems to be a bit sexist in that regard… ---
**Author:** ![Updike](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ec9cab/32.png) [@Updike](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Updike)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/134 "2005-12-29T22:18:29Z")
> [@Rushgeekgirl](#): > > Yep we’re horribly selfish. To be honest, that’s what it seems like to me. Has he paid all of his taxes, federal, state, and local? He’s never worked “off the books”? Did he register for the draft when he turned 18? Does he have a valid driver’s license, and the insurance required in your state? (Or did he use his fake social security card to get the license, making it invalid?) Has he every been called for jury duty? Does he vote? I know that voting is not a legal requirement, but I do consider it a responsibility. So yes, I think that people who enjoy the benefits of our society, without paying the commensurate costs, are selfish. Please don’t get me wrong, I am not picking on you or your family in any way. Since you have experience in this area, I would like to learn from you. I am may be totally wrong on this issue, after all. If I am, please tell me how so. ---
**Author:** ![Zakalwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zakalwe/32/270_2.png) [@Zakalwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zakalwe)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 10:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/135 "2005-12-29T22:45:25Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > Did he register for the draft when he turned 18? > Has he every been called for jury duty? > Does he vote? I know that voting is not a legal requirement, but I do consider it a responsibility. Did you miss that he’s not a citizen yet? None of these apply even if he’s here perfectly legally. ---
**Author:** ![Lemur866](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lemur866/32/434_2.png) [@Lemur866](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lemur866)\ **Post date:** [December 29, 2005, 11:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/136 "2005-12-29T23:32:48Z")
I think this is a great idea. Suppose someone comes to the US illegally. They have a kid here, but since Dad’s an illegal, he shouldn’t get citizenship, so the kid’s an illegal immigrant although he’s never been to “his” country. And when THAT kid grows up, HIS kids won’t be citizens either. Let’s scour the birth records. Anyone who has an ancestor that was an illegal immigrant has to get the fuck out. Scratch that. Anyone who can’t prove that all their ancestors going back to 1776 were legal immigrants has to get the fuck out. Can’t find Great Grandpa’s records? Get the fuck out. Can’t come up with proof mom and dad were US citizens? Get the fuck out. Go back to your own country and stop stealing American jobs. How dare they consider themselves real Americans, just because they were born here and have lived their whole lives here? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/137 "2005-12-30T00:04:12Z")
**Lemur** : We do have a rule about _ex post facto_ laws in this country. I don’t agree with the proposal, but your criticism of it is silly. It couldn’t work that way even if we wanted it to (unless we changed the _ex post facto_ part of the constution) ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/138 "2005-12-30T00:28:21Z")
> [@Updike](#): > > To be honest, that’s what it seems like to me. > > Has he paid all of his taxes, federal, state, and local? He’s never worked “off the books”? > > Did he register for the draft when he turned 18? > > Does he have a valid driver’s license, and the insurance required in your state? > > (Or did he use his fake social security card to get the license, making it invalid?) > > Has he every been called for jury duty? > > Does he vote? I know that voting is not a legal requirement, but I do consider it a responsibility. > > So yes, I think that people who enjoy the benefits of our society, without paying the commensurate costs, are selfish. > > Please don’t get me wrong, I am not picking on you or your family in any way. Since you have experience in this area, I would like to learn from you. I am may be totally wrong on this issue, after all. If I am, please tell me how so. I will be honest with every reply, despite knowing what sort of response I will get. He isn’t perfect. When he was younger, picking tomatoes and doing other day labor I’m sure no taxes were taken out of his pay. Paid taxes? From the time he got that fake SS number he was paying in with every check from the company he worked for where we met. Maybe at the end of the year he wasn’t paying enough since he was single, not sure. We don’t have state or local withholding so I guess those taxes were covered by purchases in the state? Since he lost his job after it was discovered his SS number wasn’t valid, he’s done some work off the books, yes. He has done day labor and most people that hire day laborers aren’t willing to sign anything so we don’t have much along the lines of proof that he earned that money. The tax number will be used for what he’s got down when files this year. (we got this from an IRS agent so it’s definitely legitimate) He will pay taxes on this when he files. He won’t, however, qualify for any benefits like EIC even though his earnings would fall under the maximum. Register for the draft? No, I don’t think illegal immigrants are allowed to do that are they? Drivers license and insurance? In Tennessee illegal immigrants can get driver certificates, but when we went to apply he didn’t have enough documentation. Another thing we’re looking forward to when he gets a copy of his birth certificate. He doesn’t drive though so I’m not sure why this should matter. Same with insurance. I’m the insured driver in the family. Of course he pays for it though! Jury duty? No, but neither have I. Vote? No…he can’t vote because he’s not a citizen. I can though, and I do. Still never been called for jury duty and I’ve always wanted to do it. > [@](#): > > So yes, I think that people who enjoy the benefits of our society, without paying the commensurate costs, are selfish. Were those supposed to be the benefits or costs? lol ---
**Author:** ![Rushgeekgirl](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rushgeekgirl/32/3715_2.png) [@Rushgeekgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rushgeekgirl)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/139 "2005-12-30T00:50:41Z")
> [@Zebra](#): > > **rushgeekgirl** > > Thank you for sharing your story. It illustrates perfectly how complex these situations really are as opposed to “they come and take jobs” or “they destroy our health care system by abusing the emergency room”. > > There are many people who complain that judges should not legislate from the bench. I just wish that the legislature would not judge from the state house. > > BTW, since he married an American citizen, doesn’t that make him one? We weren’t able to get the license, unfortunately. So far we have to make do with a blessing from our pastor! 😉 But you’re welcome. It felt good to tell it so someone, really. I have seen so many threads where I wanted to speak up, because it breaks my heart to hear how “they” are all coming to steal our jobs and sending all their money home. I know what his life was like and why he came here. Same with several other men I’ve worked with or met in my neighborhood. Some do send money home but most of them are either single or have families here to support. They came here because they had this crazy desire to eat more than corn and whatever they could shoot. Or to get away from abuse, like he suffered in the orphanage that was supposed to care for him. A couple of the teens in my complex came here to get away from a gang in Mexico City. They have no family here nor there and dammit they’re still kids! Some of the women came here because they knew they wanted more than having ten children living in a shack with nothing to eat. If it wasn’t so bad there they wouldn’t make that trek, because as easy as some people make it sound (just a hop, skip and a jump, right?) crossing the border isn’t a little walk in the park and assimilation here is even harder. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [December 30, 2005, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385/140 "2005-12-30T00:54:08Z")
> [@John Mace](#): > > **Lemur** : We do have a rule about _ex post facto_ laws in this country. I don’t agree with the proposal, but your criticism of it is silly. It couldn’t work that way even if we wanted it to (unless we changed the _ex post facto_ part of the constution) Well, heck, why not? If we’re going to punish children for not having the foresight to be born to legal citizens, why not punish people for not having the foresight to realize their actions might someday be outlawed? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-silly-of-course-they-didnt-mean-it-that-way/337385.md?page=8)