# OH, so if he were a 400lb WHITE man on PCP it would be OK if 6 Black cops used force? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499 "2003-12-02T14:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/61 "2003-12-03T16:04:13Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mehitabel \* > \*\*Well, just as many if not most police go through their careers without drawing, never mind shooting, their guns, maybe this particular cop never got in much ‘stick time’. > > And it seems that there was a racial angle to this but it was from the dead guy to the cops–he called them “white boys” and “rednecks” right before he lunged at them, after they’d been ttrying to talk him down for several minutes already. This [CNN](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/03/died.in.custody/index.html) article goes into a detailed sequence of events. Now, I think that was a trying-to-insult-in-heat-of-anger rather than a deep-seated race thing with Jones, and he’d probably have had some choice words for black cops too, but it does show a pretty belligerent state of mind before he started punching. And again, that first punch is a doozie, almost a full tackle. > > His internal organs weren’t damaged by the sticks; his head wasn’t touched. His overweight, drugged-up, hypertensive body just couldn’t take the ‘excitement’ of the fight. He shouldn’t have started it in the first place–the cops weren’t going to take him in anyway, they were just trying to get him to move on. \*\* I wish I could plaster this post all over the internet. I should forward this to the NAACP. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/62 "2003-12-03T16:20:18Z")
I suppose this will be short-lived speculation, but what if the guy suffocated under the weight of all those cops trying to subdue him? He did apparently call out for help in a failing voice. That’s a real ethical puzzler for me. How do you assess culpability when one of the offending parties already paid for his part of it with his life, and the others may have been unaware of how they were killing him? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/63 "2003-12-03T16:22:56Z")
Well, I could be wrong. He might have been on PCP. I’ve seen enough Cops to know that makes people odd. I’m glad he kept his clothes on. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/64 "2003-12-03T16:29:32Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sofa King \* > \*\*That’s a real ethical puzzler for me. How do you assess culpability when one of the offending parties already paid for his part of it with his life, and the others may have been unaware of how they were killing him? \*\* In this case quite easily. Hint: it lies with the the big fat hypertensive schmuck hopped up on goofballs that charged and swung on a cop without any provocation whatsoever. ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/65 "2003-12-03T16:52:47Z")
Awww, thanks \*\*World Eater![\B] There are some legitimate gripes that many black communities around the country have with their police. This just ain’t one of them. And crying wolf with stuff like this might disincline the majority to believe the activists when REAL racist stuff happens. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_One](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/45deac/32.png) [@Evil\_One](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_One)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/66 "2003-12-03T17:28:33Z")
Please don’t forget that those who worship at the altar of perpetual victimhood need people like this man. All that matters to them is the fact that he is black and he is dead. Everything after that will be spin and misrepresentation. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/67 "2003-12-03T17:49:29Z")
I’m trying hard not to get caught up in the spin and misrepresentation. What I’m trying to say is that if that dude suffocated under the weight of six cops then that’s _yet one more thing_ the police have to be careful about in the future. I have a pang of sympathy for the police, who have difficult, dangerous, and often thankless jobs. But if that guy suffocated that means that _the police really did kill that guy_. Killed him under extenuating circumstances for sure, but it underscores yet another vulnerability in the way the police can conduct their business. Something is going to have to be done about it. That’s what’s really puzzling to me. How do you treat those cops? If you let them go without a reprimand, a significant sector of the public goes stark raving mad about it. If you punish them, you’re punishing them for reasons which probably can’t reasonably be considered to be within the scope of their duties. This has the potential to be a real big shit sandwich, with an extra spicing of politics. ---
**Author:** ![KarmaComa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/e36b37/32.png) [@KarmaComa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/KarmaComa)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/68 "2003-12-03T18:34:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Shagnasty \* > \*\*Yeah. That would be cool. Either that or we could get cops that could shoot a force field out of their fingertips to hold him in place while a hypnotist is called in to put him in a trance so he can be taken away without struggle. \*\* The cop they call Reveeeeeeeen! ---
**Author:** ![smiling\_bandit](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@smiling\_bandit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smiling_bandit)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/69 "2003-12-03T18:48:09Z")
> [@](#): > > But if that guy suffocated that means that the police really did kill that guy. Given that he was apparently struggling the whole time they probably felt they couldn’t get off for fear of their mortal lives. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/70 "2003-12-03T19:05:56Z")
> [@](#): > > [WTOP](http://www.wtop.com/?sid=147626&nid=104) > CINCINNATI (AP) - A struggle with police was the primary cause of a 350-pound black man’s death and will be ruled a homicide, the coroner said Wednesday. > > Ruling the death a homicide “should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police,” he said. > > Jones’ death certificate will list a cause of death as an irregular heart beat because of a stress reaction from the violent physical struggle, Parrott said. > > Jones’ body had bruising on the lower half, but did not show signs of blows to the head or organ damage, Parrott said. Great, more fuel for the activists. ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/71 "2003-12-03T19:16:28Z")
[http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html](http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,104721,00.html) Homicide, ugh. Ruling the death a homicide “should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police,” he said. Let’s guess what will stick out in the public mind: **Homicide**? or “should not be interpreted as implying inappropriate behavior or the use of excessive force by police” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/72 "2003-12-03T19:19:44Z")
By the way **Rhum** , that just helped my cause. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/73 "2003-12-03T19:41:21Z")
How in the world could it have been a homicide if there had been no “inappropriate” behavior? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 7:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/74 "2003-12-03T19:54:59Z")
“Homicide” is the killing of a person by another person. Justifiable homicide is not "murder, manslaughter, or – negligent – homicide, for example, which are punished by the law. Self defense is one justification for homicide. In sum: murder, manslaughter, negligent homicide, or the like are illegal. “Homicide” means the cause of death was human. That’s not good for the cops at trial unless deadly force was justified. It sounds like there might have been a _serious_ blow or blows. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/75 "2003-12-03T20:01:56Z")
From Merriam-Webster Online: > [@](#): > > Main Entry: ho·mi·cide > Pronunciation: 'hä-m&-"sId, 'hO- > Function: noun > Etymology: in sense 1, from Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin homicida, from homo human being + -cida -cide; in sense 2, from Middle English, from Middle French, from Latin homicidium, from homo + -cidium -cide > Date: 14th century > 1 : a person who kills another > 2 : a killing of one human being by another Notice how there is no inherent fault or blame in “homicide” _technically_. Of course, modern usage and interpretation may vary. In reality, IMO, it suggests that the heart attack was not the only fatal injury the man sustained. I’d guess that one of the cops caved his skull in, not to put too fine a point on it. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/76 "2003-12-03T20:05:15Z")
Because of his sheer weight, had he been cuffed without a struggle, he would have had a difficult time breathing. I doubt it would have killed him though. Add a few cops and a knee on his back? Well it’s a distinct possibility. However, the homicide ruling is suspect. The true definition of homicide is the killing of one human being by another. That technically is true. I would have I wonder why it isn’t negligent homicide? ---
**Author:** ![Mehitabel](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/8797f3/32.png) [@Mehitabel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mehitabel)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/77 "2003-12-03T20:12:55Z")
Maybe the coroner does not have the distinctions in his report that a court charge does; maybe he has ‘homicide’ ‘suicide’ ‘accident’ ‘disease’ ‘other natural causes’–pick one and only one. The negligent homicide/manslaughter thing will be decided later. Nobody is saying that the cops INTENDED TO KILL this guy. I hope. I feel for the DA–the evidence seems clear to me that primary responsibility for this mess belongs with the dead man, between his actions, poor health, and ingestion of drugs, so the cops shouldn’t even be charged. But politically, I’m sure he doesn’t dare not charge them. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/78 "2003-12-03T20:16:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*In reality, IMO, it suggests that the heart attack was not the only fatal injury the man sustained. I’d guess that one of the cops caved his skull in, not to put too fine a point on it. \*\* Except there were no marks on the head, just the legs and butt. ---
**Author:** ![Sofa\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/58956e/32.png) [@Sofa\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sofa_King)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/79 "2003-12-03T20:25:51Z")
Gee, I don’t know, I sort of breathed a sigh of relief when I read that article. Sounded to me like the coroner is trying to say, “the guy’s heart freaked out on him.” In which case I retract my hypothetical situation above and return to “fuck 'im–crazy bastard invited it upon himself.” ---
**Author:** ![jimpatro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b9e5f3/32.png) [@jimpatro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimpatro)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/80 "2003-12-03T20:28:08Z")
Maybe the police should have imposed sanctions on him.:rolleyes: [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499.md?page=5)