# OH, so if he were a 400lb WHITE man on PCP it would be OK if 6 Black cops used force? **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [December 2, 2003, 2:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499 "2003-12-02T14:58:40Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 5
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/81 "2003-12-03T20:30:18Z")
I think as long as the word **Homicide** is involved, you have problems. Nothing else will matter in the minds of the frothing mob. ---
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/82 "2003-12-03T20:31:45Z")
The problem is, people who are not following the story, or are following it loosly, will equate homicide with murder, because the two are usually tied together. This was not a murder, but technically, it was a homicide. ---
**Author:** ![CrazyCatLady](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/dfb087/32.png) [@CrazyCatLady](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CrazyCatLady)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/83 "2003-12-03T20:55:47Z")
Well, since the coroner is saying that the guy died as a direct result of the fight, he pretty much has to label it as a homicide, technically. Yes, the cause of death is heart attack, but the heart attack was a direct result of human action, which makes it homicide. Was the beating justified? IMO, yes. Cops, like medical personnel, have a higher stake in remaining uninjured than most people. A cop with a broken arm (or worse) can’t help anybody else, can he? When I took EMT training, the first thing they taught us, which was repeated at regular intervals through the course, was that NO patient is worth getting yourself put out of commission. There are too many other people counting on you to get yourself hurt or killed, and if that means letting someone bleed to death while the police secure a scene, that sucks but that’s just how it has to be. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/84 "2003-12-03T21:12:21Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*By the way **Rhum** , that just helped my cause. 😃 \*\* Indeed. Not enough I’m afraid. My vote still goes for $0. Looks like there won’t be any riots this time. Pity that. ---
**Author:** ![voguevixen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/b5ac83/32.png) [@voguevixen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voguevixen)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/85 "2003-12-03T21:25:07Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Belrix \* > \*\*I saw a show on non-lethal weapons once and apparently the problem with glue technologies is getting the stuff off afterward. > > Sure, glue him to the sidewalk, then what? \*\* Karo Syrup or honey. The ants will take care of the rest. ---
**Author:** ![ccwaterback](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/df705f/32.png) [@ccwaterback](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ccwaterback)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/86 "2003-12-03T21:38:17Z")
So some big dude wigged out on drugs starts punching me, has a heart attack, and dies. I’m charged with homicide? Because I was indeed the cause of his death. He over-exerted himself kicking the shit out of me. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/87 "2003-12-03T23:16:45Z")
**ccwaterback** – You can’t be charged with “homicide” since “homicide” isn’t a crime. Murder is a crime. Homicide is a word used to describe the nature of the cause of death. ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/88 "2003-12-03T23:38:14Z")
I set off “negligent” homicide as yet to be determined. Point being, it’s easy to leave out the “negligent.” Self defense is at issue. That’s the best example of justifiable homicide. These pesky fact things: “legs and butt.” If it’s a heart attack, and there were no supposedly fatal blows, how can it be homicide? Beats me. Any coroners around? (We’ll take an MD) ---
**Author:** ![CanvasShoes](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/74df32/32.png) [@CanvasShoes](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CanvasShoes)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/89 "2003-12-04T04:28:16Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*How come we never see videos of white men (or women for that matter) being subdued by police? > Surely there are lots.?! \*\* Sure there are, on “COPS”. And “World’s Wildest Police Videos”. Shows like that. The difference is that the people in these videos KNOW that they were at fault. ---
**Author:** ![Kleptocracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f17d59/32.png) [@Kleptocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kleptocracy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 8:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/90 "2003-12-04T08:17:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*I set off “negligent” homicide as yet to be determined. Point being, it’s easy to leave out the “negligent.” Self defense is at issue. That’s the best example of justifiable homicide. > > These pesky fact things: “legs and butt.” If it’s a heart attack, and there were no supposedly fatal blows, how can it be homicide? Beats me. > > Any coroners around? (We’ll take an MD) \*\* You can give someone a heart attack and it be a homicide. The Coroner’s inquest seems to suggest that the “struggle” killed him, and I am not sure if that is intentionally vague or what. To me the “struggle” could have caused heart failure or it could have been the result of blows+ a heart condition. It certainly isn’t negligent, because proper force was used in this case. Argue all you want, but proper force is the force necessary to subdue and arrest a suspect. On the video I watched, I never saw anything that wasn’t an attempt to subdue, and he was given numerous verbal warnings. I’m not sure why you are tripping over the homicide statement. A homicide is simply a human killing another human. There is nothing to the statement to suggest it was a murder, negligent, or even illegal. Maybe I am tainted because I’m a CJ major who plans to be a LEO, but this case doesn’t seen to be questionable at all to me. Now Rodney King might have had a gripe, but this fucker certainly does not. There was a poster that asked whether “digging” or “gouging” with a baton was allowed. The answer is a simple yes. Baton tactics use pain to coerce a subject to cooperate. Gouging and digging are a much better pain compliance technique than beating the bloody fuck out of someone until they are unconscious. Honestly, I will be the first to say something was suspicious about a call or an unnecessary usage of force, but that certainly wasn’t here. BTW, the Cincy Department stopped using tasers because they found them to be inaccurate, ineffective, and unusable in the field. I certainly disagree with their assessment, but I guess the are used to tackling hopped up PCP idiots and not the typical drunk. They make it out to be that the Tasers they had were old, but the chief didn’t exactly seem to be enthused with them. [[http://www.wcpo.com/news/2003/local/12/03/jones\_streicher.html](http://www.wcpo.com/news/2003/local/12/03/jones_streicher.html)](Cite for the Taser part.) ---
**Author:** ![Kleptocracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f17d59/32.png) [@Kleptocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kleptocracy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 8:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/91 "2003-12-04T08:18:52Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*I think as long as the word **Homicide** is involved, you have problems. Nothing else will matter in the minds of the frothing mob. \*\* Of course it won’t matter. People want to riot and logic is no use to them. ---
**Author:** ![SPOOFE](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c5a1d2/32.png) [@SPOOFE](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SPOOFE)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/92 "2003-12-04T09:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > What I’m trying to say is that if that dude suffocated under the weight of six cops then that’s yet one more thing the police have to be careful about in the future. You’re right! They should have just told him to calm down and put his hands behind his back! Oh, wait… ---
**Author:** ![vanilla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/f19dbf/32.png) [@vanilla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/vanilla)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/93 "2003-12-04T15:34:25Z")
Hmmm, what if police, in the future, tried to subdue using chloroform? Wousl that be feasible? ---
**Author:** ![Beagle](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/85f322/32.png) [@Beagle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Beagle)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/94 "2003-12-04T16:05:39Z")
Kleptocracy, (You want to be a gov’t. emp.? Peachy.) I’m not going to argue either way. Every time I watch video it’s one little slice of the whole encounter. I have yet to see a news story actually look at all the video and analyze it. You know, news stuff that they should do, but don’t any more. “Punchy! Bam! More lipstick for Laurie!!!” ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/95 "2003-12-04T16:29:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\*Indeed. Not enough I’m afraid. My vote still goes for $0. > > Looks like there won’t be any riots this time. Pity that. \*\* Well the family has a lawyer. He is saying the guy was actually trying to surrender. :rolleyes: [http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/04/died.in.custody/index.html](http://www.cnn.com/2003/US/Midwest/12/04/died.in.custody/index.html) Ugh this whole thing pisses me off. ---
**Author:** ![Rhum\_Runner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@Rhum\_Runner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rhum_Runner)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 4:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/96 "2003-12-04T16:58:35Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by World Eater \* > \*\*Well the family has a lawyer. He is saying the guy was actually trying to surrender. :rolleyes: > \*\* Still no closer to an actual payout. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![World\_Eater](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/f04885/32.png) [@World\_Eater](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/World_Eater)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/97 "2003-12-04T17:12:14Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Rhum Runner \* > \*\*Still no closer to an actual payout. 🙂 \*\* That’s the only silver lining in this whole thing. 😛 ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 5:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/98 "2003-12-04T17:29:03Z")
From the recently linked CNN article: > [@](#): > > …his hands are open, his palms are open, they’re not clenched in a fist in a fighting mode, he is trying to get into a surrender position. And the cops weren’t letting him? :dubious: ---
**Author:** ![Kleptocracy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f17d59/32.png) [@Kleptocracy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kleptocracy)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/99 "2003-12-04T21:03:04Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Beagle \* > \*\*Kleptocracy, (You want to be a gov’t. emp.? Peachy.) > > I’m not going to argue either way. Every time I watch video it’s one little slice of the whole encounter. I have yet to see a news story actually look at all the video and analyze it. You know, news stuff that they should do, but don’t any more. > > “Punchy! Bam! More lipstick for Laurie!!!” \*\* Sorry to disappoint but I am just a lowly student right now. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![Eve](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/9e8a1a/32.png) [@Eve](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eve)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499/100 "2003-12-04T21:18:18Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by vanilla \* > \*\*Hmmm, what if police, in the future, tried to subdue using chloroform? > Wousl that be feasible? \*\* Nope. Unless it was applied in _just the right amount_, by a trained anesthesiologist, to someone who wasn’t allergic, you’d pretty much kill all your suspects. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499.md?page=4) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-so-if-he-were-a-400lb-white-man-on-pcp-it-would-be-ok-if-6-black-cops-used-force/216499.md?page=6)