# Oh those wacky Mormons! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [November 11, 2008, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158 "2008-11-11T03:54:45Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a9a28c/32.png) [@pseudotriton\_ruber\_ruber](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pseudotriton_ruber_ruber)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/21 "2008-11-11T14:10:06Z")
I want to change my user name to “Dick Move.” ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 2:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/22 "2008-11-11T14:57:35Z")
I should just repost my first post in the thread **CalMeacham** linked to: > [@me](#): > > FTR, I am generally a very moderate to liberal Protestant Christian, and I as a rule have nothing against the LDS and of course have no basis to quarrel with their beliefs, but the practice of baptizing people who are no longer living deeply offends me. Anything any other Christian church wants to do to frustrate the practice is fine by me. Anyone who cares about the substance of that opinion can read the other thread, where it’s set forth at length. ---
**Author:** ![Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/4da419/32.png) [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gala_Matrix_Fire)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/23 "2008-11-11T15:00:24Z")
I now pronounce all your ancestors atheists. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/24 "2008-11-11T15:28:44Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > I now pronounce all your ancestors atheists. When you are performing a Christian religious ritual in a church, one that purports to make all my ancestors atheists, get back to me and I’ll see if I can’t work up some indignation. ---
**Author:** ![Cluricaun](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/bb73d2/32.png) [@Cluricaun](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cluricaun)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/25 "2008-11-11T15:38:37Z")
> [@Gala\_Matrix\_Fire](#): > > I now pronounce all your ancestors atheists. And I pronounce all previously deceased peoples of history to be Jehovah’s Witnesses. That means tha…hold on, there’s someone at the door. ---
**Author:** ![Inner\_Stickler](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/inner_stickler/32/318_2.png) [@Inner\_Stickler](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Inner_Stickler)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/26 "2008-11-11T15:44:04Z")
Maintaining an accurate and extensive genealogical database is a more laudable goal than trying not to offend some prissy Pwecious Pwincesses. Go Mormons, go! Our descendants will thank you. ---
**Author:** ![Malthus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/85f322/32.png) [@Malthus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Malthus)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/27 "2008-11-11T15:51:12Z")
Doesn’t offend me personally, but I can certainly understand why it would offend others - even if it is effectively meaningless (unless you are a Mormon). It is disrespectful of the living to monkey with the memory of their dead ancestors, even if it is only in symbolic ways. It is the same reason why pissing on someone’s gravestone isn’t a good idea. It affects nothing - the dead cannot feel piss, and piss will not damage or deface a gravestone that gets acid rain on it anyway. It is simply preceived as disrespectful, even if the pisser happens to think it is a sign of everlasting fertility or something. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 3:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/28 "2008-11-11T15:58:10Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > A: Would I have to move to the LDS Heaven? See, that’s it in a nutshell for me. I don’t want to spend eternity in Protestant Heaven, much less Mormon Heaven, so I never fully renounced being Catholic. See, if there’s anything I learned in daily religion classes in grades 1-8 it’s what I need to do at the last possible second to guarantee an eternity (well, after a spell in Purgatory) with Italians, Mexicans, and Poles. The food’s better, the women prettier, and there’s booze and gambling. ---
**Author:** ![FatBaldGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ecd19e/32.png) [@FatBaldGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FatBaldGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/29 "2008-11-11T16:09:53Z")
This topic comes up from time to time, and I don’t know anything that I or any other LDS members on this board say will change anyone’s mind. The bottom line is that no one is trying to “force” anything on anyone. We are trying to give an opportunity for salvation to those who did not have that chance when they were alive. You will never see anyone make the claim that “Great-Grandpa Edward was a Mormon because I was baptized for him.” It doesn’t work that way. As a point of interest, there is evidence from Paul’s letters that the early Christians also practiced baptisms for the dead. In the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul is preaching about the fact that all men will be resurrected. Almost in passing, in verse 29, he asks, [QUOTE=1 Corinthians 15:29] Else what shall they do which are baptized for the dead, if the dead rise not at all? why are they then baptized for the dead? [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/30 "2008-11-11T16:12:29Z")
My main objection to it is that it’s yet another way that the LDS church refuses to mind their own business. Stop trying to tell other people who they can marriage, stop trespassing onto other people’s property to try to convert them, stop posthumously baptizing people you didn’t even know…just mind your own damn business. I’m speaking solely about the church leadership here, but good riddance, what a bunch of nosy assholes. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/31 "2008-11-11T16:34:23Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > The bottom line is that no one is trying to “force” anything on anyone. We are trying to give an opportunity for salvation to those who did not have that chance when they were alive. And you, and other LDS members, either cannot or will not acknowledge the insult in offering someone an “opportunity” based on _your_ assumption they “did not have that chance when they were alive”. You completely disregard the reality that many of those people earnestly and honestly believe they _did_ have that opportunity already, thank you very much, and either knowingly accepted salvation in their own faiths or knowingly rejected the entire concept (of salvation, of Christianity, or of religion) outright. And you do not merely “give the opportunity” – “Hey dead people! if you want to be baptized give us a call and we’ll arrange it!” – you perform a sacrament, a temple ordinance upon them or for them by proxy, without knowing whether they would appreciate it or even allow it. And many of them would clearly _not_ allow it, not in a millions years, as you fully well know. But you (the LDS) do it anyway. Of course you do, because your religion requires you to, and you believe it is the right thing to do – a gift you are offering to people who will be disadvantaged if they don’t have it. (Heaven for them? Maybe; but definitely not the extra-super-primo-fine _Mormon_ heaven!) I have no real problem with that – on what grounds could I? – but I don’t think anyone with even a basic understanding of religion or faith would seriously say they cannot _possibly imagine_ why anyone would be offended by it. > [@](#): > > As a point of interest, there is evidence from Paul’s letters that the early Christians also practiced baptisms for the dead. In the 15th chapter of 1 Corinthians, Paul is preaching about the fact that all men will be resurrected. Almost in passing, in verse 29, he asks, A single passage subject to such vehement disagreement as to meaning strikes some of us as pretty flimsy “evidence.” (Anyone who cares to, can simply Google 1 Cor 15:29 for about a zillion hits.) Which is of course just another reason the LDS should confine its practices to its own adherents and leave those of other faiths alone. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/32 "2008-11-11T16:43:20Z")
> [@FatBaldGuy](#): > > The bottom line is that no one is trying to “force” anything on anyone. We are trying to give an opportunity for salvation to those who did not have that chance when they were alive. Lemme see if I have this straight. Grampa Schlomo is already in the Afterlife. He sees that the LDS had it right and, had he been exposed to Mormonism while physically alive, he would have had the chance to be right, too. What’s to stop him from converting on his own? Why does he have to wait for Joe Smith here on Earth to extend the invite? ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/33 "2008-11-11T16:48:17Z")
> [@CalMeacham](#): > > Comparing Vicarious Baptism for the Dead (and other Vicarious LDS services that don’t get the same press) to Holocaust Revisionism is so far off the mark it isn’t funny. From the OP’s link: > [@](#): > > Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers. > > “They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but … 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday. I think you need to accept that Jews have been given excellent reasons to be wary of attempts to distort the historical record in relation to the Holocaust. I do agree with the sentiment stated elsewhere here that the main problem with the Mormon practice of posthumous baptism is that it insults and causes pain to the descendants of Holocaust victims. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Dave](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/46a35a/32.png) [@Great\_Dave](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Dave)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/34 "2008-11-11T16:49:23Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > See, that’s it in a nutshell for me. I don’t want to spend eternity in Protestant Heaven, much less Mormon Heaven, so I never fully renounced being Catholic. See, if there’s anything I learned in daily religion classes in grades 1-8 it’s what I need to do at the last possible second to guarantee an eternity (well, after a spell in Purgatory) with Italians, Mexicans, and Poles. The food’s better, the women prettier, and there’s booze and gambling. Yeah, well you also get the Irish (most of 'em, anyhow) and the French. ---
**Author:** ![Jodi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7feea3/32.png) [@Jodi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jodi)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 4:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/35 "2008-11-11T16:50:26Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > Lemme see if I have this straight. Grampa Schlomo is already in the Afterlife. He sees that the LDS had it right and, had he been exposed to Mormonism while physically alive, he would have had the chance to be right, too. What’s to stop him from converting on his own? Why does he have to wait for Joe Smith here on Earth to extend the invite? Because Saba Schlomo must be baptized in order to be saved. God is all-powerful, but He chooses not to save the unbaptized, no matter how worthy. No baptism = no salvation. Ergo, if Grandpa wasn’t baptized while living, he must be baptized after death. The rationale for it makes perfect sense, assuming you believe the LDS tenets. The fact that it makes zero sense to many people outside the faith doesn’t really concern them, because they are convinced that they are right and the rest of us are wrong. Imagine how happy Schlomo will be when he sees his error and accepts his baptism! Who could possibly have a problem with that? ---
**Author:** ![Sarahfeena](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/sarahfeena/32/519_2.png) [@Sarahfeena](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sarahfeena)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/36 "2008-11-11T17:00:10Z")
It doesn’t seem to me to be hard to understand why a Jew might be offended by this. Throughout the history of Christianity, Jews have been forced to convert and undergo baptism they did not want (or die resisting it). The world is finally enlightened enough where it’s not a worry while they are alive, but now people are trying to get them after they are dead. Even if they understand that it’s not a “real” baptism, it’s symbolic of all the oppression they have undergone throughout history. I’m Catholic, and I don’t love the idea of someone else proxy baptizing me, but if I were Jewish, I think I’d be completely outraged. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/37 "2008-11-11T17:39:05Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The people who should be offended most by this continuing hoo-hah are rank and file Mormons. You’d think it would be most embarassing to find out that your church cannot keep its word and repeatedly lies about what it’s doing. They’re not offended because they honestly, truly couldn’t give a flying fuck. They have a thousand justifications, and what it all really comes down to is, “We don’t give a flying fuck.” > [@](#): > > My main objection to it is that it’s yet another way that the LDS church refuses to mind their own business. Stop trying to tell other people who they can marriage, stop trespassing onto other people’s property to try to convert them, stop posthumously baptizing people you didn’t even know…just mind your own damn business. > > I’m speaking solely about the church leadership here, but good riddance, what a bunch of nosy assholes. Why just apply it to the church leadership? The members know what the leadership is doing and support them in various direct and indirect ways. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/38 "2008-11-11T17:44:44Z")
> [@](#): > > From the OP’s link: > > > [@](#): > > > > : > > Michel suggested that posthumous baptisms of Holocaust victims play into the hands of Holocaust deniers. > > > > “They tell me, that my parents’ Jewishness has not been altered but … 100 years from now, how will they be able to guarantee that my mother and father of blessed memory who lived as Jews and were slaughtered by Hitler for no other reason than they were Jews, will someday not be identified as Mormon victims of the Holocaust?” Michel said Monday. > > I think you need to accept that Jews have been given excellent reasons to be wary of attempts to distort the historical record in relation to the Holocaust. I read that already, and I still don’t see how this plays intio the hands of Holocaust deniers. This isn’t just Jews and Catholics, by the way. The Mormons have been doing this to anyone they think appropriate. there are reports from the 19th century of them doing it for anyone, period. I suspect that prominent figuires like George Washington and Abraham Lincoln have been vicariously baptized and undergone other rituals several hundred times by now. The LDS have been at this for over 150 years, and it hasn’t exactly been a Big Secret for qute a while now. I’m a bit surprised everyone’s getting upset over it at the same time, just now. ---
**Author:** ![NinjaChick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/71c47a/32.png) [@NinjaChick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NinjaChick)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/39 "2008-11-11T17:48:41Z")
> [@pepperlandgirl](#): > > Why just apply it to the church leadership? The members know what the leadership is doing and support them in various direct and indirect ways. Because I’m a goddamn hippie liberal and I can’t help but feel terribly guilty whenever I pull out that big brush. I do have a problem with people not speaking out against it, but I’m not sure if that’s on the same level as those who are really all for it. Then again, I seem to recall Mormonism being one of those religions where churches operate along “God needs your cash so hand it over or your soul is damned”, so that might add another layer to it. The world would be such a better place if people just got the fuck over the idea that your god wants you to drag as many people as you can into your belief set. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2008, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158/40 "2008-11-11T17:50:38Z")
I think few would care if the LDS people had a ceremony once in awhile in which they offered posthumous baptism to all deceased members of other faiths, without specifying actual people. It’d still be loopy, but not as offensive as compulsively collecting souls and jotting down names in a book, apologizing and promising to stop, but then secretively resuming the practice anyway. > [@Cal Meacham](#): > > The LDS have been at this for over 150 years, and it hasn’t exactly been a Big Secret for qute a while now. I’m a bit surprised everyone’s getting upset over it at the same time, just now. I recall this same argument (minus the implication that everyone is suddenly picking on Mormons) being made in a thread about Confederate flag protests - i.e. that if an offensive practice got by for awhile without a great deal of attention, it is effectively grandfathered and no longer a legitimate target of protest. Sorry, idiocy like this doesn’t get any automatic pass. It holds true for all religions: no matter what ancient books, rituals and inertia seemingly tell you to do, God does _not_ want you to be a pain in the ass. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/oh-those-wacky-mormons/472158.md?page=3)